# A diplomat's child is not a citizen of their country? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 13, 2022, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734 "2022-01-13T17:10:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/81 "2022-01-13T22:07:06Z")
So you disagree with the way it works. Thanks for letting us know, but that IS the way it works and has for quite a long time now. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/82 "2022-01-13T22:09:54Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How many ambassadors can you name who got their job because they were highly qualified diplomats with a lifetime of experience and chose that job out of a zeal for service to their country? I’m not talking about ambassadors (who are, as you seem to be suggesting, often given those roles for political reasons, and are often not career diplomats). I’m talking about the actual members of the diplomatic corps, who have, in fact, pursued such a job as their career. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/83 "2022-01-13T22:11:10Z")
Do they all have diplomatic immunity that same as an ambassador? (really asking) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/84 "2022-01-13T22:13:16Z")
No…the question was about discouraging diplomats from the job. I don’t think any ambassador sought the job because they wanted to serve. They did so because it is a prestigious job. Maybe the ambassador to Burkina Faso is a career diplomat. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/85 "2022-01-13T22:17:06Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do they all have diplomatic immunity that same as an ambassador? (really asking) Short answer: yes, though the lower down in the hierarchy, the less that may be covered by it (note that Anne Sacoolas, the woman who was being discussed upthread, is apparently the wife of a diplomat, not an ambassador). Most “career diplomats” are very likely going to fall into the first category described below (link to the cite is at the bottom of this post): > [@](#): > > Diplomatic agents—that is, high ranking embassy officials (ambassadors, for example) who serve the function of dealing directly with their host country’s officials on behalf of their home country—enjoy the highest degree of immunity. The same applies to their family members. > > The police cannot detain them, arrest them, or search or seize their houses and other property. Diplomats cannot be prosecuted or otherwise forced to appear in criminal court. Nor can they be sued in civil courts, except for their personal (non-official) involvement in certain commercial, real-estate, or inheritance-related matters, or for their separate professional activities. > > So, for example: An ambassador who is sued for failing to pay her personal home mortgage premium might lose title to her house but cannot be forced to pay damages and may not be evicted. > > A second category of embassy personnel, the administrative and technical staff (secretaries, for example) who directly support diplomatic activities, enjoy the same immunity from police actions and criminal courts, but a lesser degree of immunity from civil courts. They can be sued like anyone else, except for acts performed in connection with their official function. (No such exception applies to their family members.) Accordingly, an embassy secretary who fails to pay his personal home mortgage premium could not only lose his title but also be sued for damages; though he may not be evicted. > > Yet other embassy employees (chauffeurs, for example), who only indirectly support diplomatic activities, enjoy the lowest degree of immunity. They have (either criminal or civil) immunity only for acts performed in connection with their embassy role. Their family members enjoy no immunity at all. > **[What Is Diplomatic Immunity?](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-is-diplomatic-immunity.html)** > > Foreign government officials in the U.S. enjoy some protection from prosecution, but not in all matters. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/86 "2022-01-13T22:55:32Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Maybe leave your kids in the home country. Such is the price of service. > > I can see it depending on the country you are in and its relationship with your country. Some I am sure would be fine. Others, you might worry. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > On the other hand, if a country were to not extend DI to a diplomat’s family, you’d wind up discouraging many otherwise highly-qualified members of the diplomatic corps from entering the field (or staying in it once they have a family). > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > How many ambassadors can you name who got their job because they were highly qualified diplomats with a lifetime of experience and chose that job out of a zeal for service to their country? This is all off-topic for this thread. How you think things should work or "what-if"s belong in IMHO or GD. How and why ambassadors got their job is not a part of this topic. Please stick to the topic and keep the discussion factual. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/87 "2022-01-13T23:22:28Z")
The “how and why” aside as instructed, the fact remains that diplomatic staff up to and including ambassadors do often take their families (spouses and minor children) with them as the postings are often for years. This now also includes same-sex married couples, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/88 "2022-01-13T23:37:21Z")
Yes, it is normally the case that the ambassador to a low-profile country such as Burkina Faso is a career diplomat who has worked her way up through the diplomatic service. For high-profile countries such as China, the ambassador is normally a political appointee, while all other diplomats are career Foreign Service Officers. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/89 "2022-01-13T23:41:44Z")
Wiklipedia has a handy-dandy [list of all ambassadors of the U.S](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambassadors_of_the_United_States). and helpfully lists whether they’re career diplomats or political appointees. There are by far more career diplomats than political appointees, if only because the world has a lot more countries like Burkina Faso than France. ---
**Author:** ![md-2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@md-2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md-2000)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/90 "2022-01-13T23:42:52Z")
AFAIK diplomatic immunity applies to someone entering the country on a diplomatic passport. Generally, unless passing through, the diplomat would have their accreditations accepted by the state department of the receiving country. The sending country cannot just send anyone it feels like and leave the host country unable to deal with them - the host country can refuse to accept a diplomat, and/or ask them to leave at any time. But as repeated above ad nauseum, the diplomat is NOT subject to the laws (jurisdiction) of the local country. This is what produces the answer to your question, why the constitution and laws exclude their children born in the USA from citizenship. They cannot be prosecuted locally. However, often the country they are from will deal with them instead, if the charge is serious. My brother had a liaison post with an American agency for a few years and lived near Washington. He mentioned that the Canadian External Affairs warned him seriously that he (or his immediate family, if he’d had one with him) would be exempt from local laws, but should the government find out about any legal problems _whatsoever_ he would likely be on the first flight home with a serious re-examination of his career. Good examples: > **[Former Russian diplomat guilty of involuntary manslaughter | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/former-russian-diplomat-guilty-of-involuntary-manslaughter-1.313443)** > > Former Russian diplomat guilty of involuntary manslaughter, sentenced to four years. This guy probably wished Moscow had waived immunity - a Canadian jail is probably a better place. There’s also this: > **[Canadian diplomat's teen son charged with murder in Florida | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/canadian-diplomat-s-teen-son-charged-with-murder-in-florida-1.3034278)** > > U.S. media are reporting that a Canadian diplomat's teenage son accused of involvement in a drug-related shootout that killed his older brother in Florida has been charged with first-degree murder. These kids found the hard way, while the consul (not an ambassador) has diplomatic immunity, family of a consul apparently don’t necessarily enjoy the same immunity privileges as ambassadors’ families. An issue nobody has raised - so presumably, if an ambassador’s teenage daughter has a child while living in the USA, presumably that child too is not an American by birth (jus soli) as the mother is outside jurisdiction? then does the child inherit immunity? To be fair to the American being chased by the British - I have driven in places like Britain, Australia, and New Zealand. You would be amazed how easy it is to be on automatic pilot and forget to drive on the other side of the road. The easiest clue that oops, you are on the wrong side of the road is oncoming traffic. The one or two oops I’ve had (none serious) were on deserted country roads and in unmarked parking lots. I almost blew the tires out approaching the security gate as soon as I picked up a car at Heathrow headed out on the wrong side of the entry booth. (Then it took a minute or two to figure out where reverse was.) Apparently, she was leaving a facility in the countryside, late at night, and she came around a corner head-on with a motorcycle so no time to adjust. When I was on the road near Ayers Rock, I saw the bus coming half a mile away and corrected my driving. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/91 "2022-01-14T00:04:50Z")
> [@md-2000](#): > > An issue nobody has raised - so presumably, if an ambassador’s teenage daughter has a child while living in the USA, presumably that child too is not an American by birth (jus soli) as the mother is outside jurisdiction? then does the child inherit immunity? That is an interesting question. If the father is American then the kid is American. But what if the father is someone on the embassy staff? Just how far would “inherited immunity” go, if there is such a thing? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/92 "2022-01-14T00:06:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Do they all have diplomatic immunity that same as an ambassador? (really asking) In addition to what was already said: Many — I think more than have diplomatic immunity — are exempt from some U.S. taxes. This is another way in which an embassy or consulate employee or dependent may not be subject to U.S. jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/93 "2022-01-14T00:16:11Z")
NM, just saw the mod note. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/94 "2022-01-14T00:20:56Z")
\<\< deleted by poster \>\> ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/95 "2022-01-14T02:34:27Z")
So, it is not automatic citizenship but seems a foreign diplomat CAN register their newborn as a US citizen if they want to if it is born in the US. If one parent is a US citizen then the child is automatically a citizen if born in the US. > The child of a foreign diplomatic officer accredited by the U.S. Department of State who is born in the United States may voluntarily register for lawful permanent residence. > > Foreign diplomats enjoy certain immunities under international law. The spouse and child of a diplomat generally enjoy similar immunities. Children born in the United States to accredited foreign diplomatic officers do not acquire citizenship under the 14th Amendment since they are not “born . . . subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.”[**[2]** ](https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-7-part-o-chapter-3#footnote-2)DHS regulations, however, have long allowed these children to choose to be considered lawful permanent residents (LPRs) from the time of birth.[**[3]** ](https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-7-part-o-chapter-3#footnote-3) > > Registration as a permanent resident under this provision is entirely voluntary, but it does involve an application process. > > This registration process is necessary and available only if both parents were foreign diplomats when the child was born. If one parent was an accredited diplomat, but the other was a U.S. citizen or non-citizen U.S. national, then the child was “born . . . subject to the jurisdiction of the United States,” and is a citizen. > > - [SOURCE](https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-7-part-o-chapter-3) Note: As @kenobi_65 noted below this is not citizenship but permanent residence. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/96 "2022-01-14T02:40:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > So, it is not automatic citizenship but seems a foreign diplomat CAN register their newborn as a US citizen if they want to if it is born in the US. If one parent is a US citizen then the child is automatically a citizen if born in the US. > > > The child of a foreign diplomatic officer accredited by the U.S. Department of State who is born in the United States may voluntarily register for **lawful permanent residence**. (emphasis mine) Just to note that a “lawful permanent resident” of the U.S. is a different thing from being a U.S. citizen. Your cite shows that foreign diplomats can register their U.S.-born children to be permanent residents; it doesn’t say that they can register them as U.S. citizens. > **[Differences Between a Citizen and Permanent Resident - Road to Status™](https://www.roadtostatus.com/differences-citizen-permanent-resident/)** > > Ever wonder what the differences between a citizen and permanent resident are? There's actually quite a few, and Road To Status has the answers. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/97 "2022-01-14T02:41:53Z")
Good point. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/98 "2022-01-14T03:34:11Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Again, it isn’t about being “politically connected,” it’s about being granted diplomatic immunity, which is well-established in international treaties Please excuse the hijack, it’s been a long while since high school law class, I seem to recall that treaties signed and ratified by the US supersede or modify the US constitution or have to be written in such a way as to not conflict with the constitution. (Seriously, it was high school, a single semester long class and 30 years ago). Please correct me if wrong and refine if not “wrong” per sé? ---
**Author:** ![gkster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gkster/32/14107_2.png) [@gkster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gkster)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/99 "2022-01-14T03:54:10Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Under United States Federal law ([8 U.S.C.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_8_of_the_United_States_Code) [§ 1401](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1401)), a person is a United States national and citizen if: > > - the person is born in the United States, **and subject to the jurisdiction thereof** > > That excludes diplomats and their spawn, wherever they are born. Ahem. Diplomatic “spawn” here, thank you very much. And I know that I’m not the only one on the board with this type of background. Regarding the immunity issue, the way it was explained to me when growing up was that it was to protect diplomats from possible harassment from the country in which they were serving in the event that relations went sour. It wasn’t meant to be a “get out of jail free” card, even though that’s what it’s become in some cases. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2022, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734/100 "2022-01-14T03:57:57Z")
> [@gkster](#): > > Regarding the immunity issue, the way it was explained to me when growing up was that it was to protect diplomats from possible harassment from the country in which they were serving in the event that relations went sour. It wasn’t meant to be a “get out of jail free” card, even though that’s what it’s become in some cases. Sure, that’s the intent. But the _get out of jail free_ aspect of it is the inevitable result. Home countries can waive immunity, or prosecute the individual on their own soil. But effectively the host country’s hands are tied with respect to prosecuting misbehaving diplomats or diplomatic spawn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-diplomats-child-is-not-a-citizen-of-their-country/957734.md?page=6)