# A duck's quack doesn't echo, and other weird shit people believe **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 5, 2016, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553 "2016-06-05T09:44:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/61 "2016-06-08T04:22:50Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I was at a party with a person that I really like and respect, and she asserted the “fact” that Mr. Rogers always wears sweaters because he has arms covered in tattoos which he got while being a sniper in the military. > > I knew she was wrong but I was aghast that this particular person would be the type of person to repeat such outrageous claims. I actually believed her for a second. Unfortunately (?) I didn’t have a smart phone at the time so I couldn’t be like “LOOK, SNOPES SAYS IT’S FALSE!” so I just kind of let it go for the moment, looked it up when I got home, and quietly felt bad about it ever since. I had a co-worker assert this very same “fact” to me - but i did my phone handy and snopesed that shit down. I don’t think he was terribly impressed by the truth (he was a marine amd seemed a bit bummed). ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/62 "2016-06-08T08:09:43Z")
As I said back in 2009: \> Guys, it’s much worse than you think. Not only did Fred Rogers hide his military \> career (where he was trained as a sniper), but he was the leader of a team that \> assassinated President Kennedy. He was called back into action by the \> CIA/Mafia/Cuban group that planned the assassination. Besides Rogers, the group \> of three snipers assigned to the job included John Denver (who secretly received \> sniper training from friends of his father, an Army officer) and Dr. Ruth \> Westheimer, who had been a sniper in the Israeli army. The assassination planners \> thought that these three would never be suspected - and they never were - until \> _now_. > **[Fake celebrity military rumors](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=513094)** > > There have been several celebrities that have false rumors about their military service. Mister Rogers was not a sniper or a SEAL. Captain Kangaroo was a Marine but was too young to get into WWII so was not a war hero. Jerry Mathers did not die in... ---
**Author:** ![Pixel\_Dent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@Pixel\_Dent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pixel_Dent)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/63 "2016-06-08T15:57:19Z")
> [@california\_jobcase](#): > > My elementary school teachers told us the reason for locks on the Panama canal was so the Atlantic and Pacific wouldn’t drain into each other, causing mass flooding and catastrophes in general. My 6th grade teacher told us the glass in the old school windows was wavy because glass flowed. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/64 "2016-06-08T18:04:23Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I see you learned nothing [from my previous post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18905734&postcount=53). I couldnt learn anything since your post was wrong. :\* I lived in Hawaii and am very aware of the history. It was a total scam by the pineapple barons, all of them American. One of them, Lorrin Thurston, headed the provisional government that illegally overthrew Queen Liliuokalani in 1893\* Lorrin Thurston was **not American**. He was born and raised in the Kingdom of Hawaiʻi, and his parents were also born there, His father was Speaker of the house of representatives of the Kingdom of Hawaii. Other of these "all American"s you claim were: William Richards Castle was born in **Honolulu** March 19, 1849. William Owen Smith born August 4, 1848 in Kōloa on the island of **Kauaʻi.** and of course Sanford Dole was born April 23, 1844 in **Honolulu.** _These men were Hawaiians,_ not Americans. Just because their skin was lighter color, doesnt make them not born there. All of these men would have lost the right to vote, and even had their property confiscated by the Queen as they were (mostly) White and not a native member of the Royal Family. **This was racism, pure and simple.** ---
**Author:** ![Esox\_Lucius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Esox\_Lucius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esox_Lucius)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/65 "2016-06-08T19:19:55Z")
“You can hear the northern lights.” I’ve had to correct my wife on this a few times over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/66 "2016-06-09T03:04:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I couldnt learn anything since your post was wrong. :\* I lived in Hawaii and am very aware of the history. It was a total scam by the pineapple barons, all of them American. One of them, Lorrin Thurston, headed the provisional government that illegally overthrew Queen Liliuokalani in 1893\* > > Lorrin Thurston was **not American**. He was born and raised in the Kingdom of Hawaiʻi, and his parents were also born there, His father was Speaker of the house of representatives of the Kingdom of Hawaii. > > Other of these "all American"s you claim were: > William Richards Castle was born in **Honolulu** March 19, 1849. > William Owen Smith born August 4, 1848 in Kōloa on the island of **Kauaʻi.** > and of course > Sanford Dole was born April 23, 1844 in **Honolulu.** > > _These men were Hawaiians,_ not Americans. Just because their skin was lighter color, doesnt make them not born there. > > All of these men would have lost the right to vote, and even had their property confiscated by the Queen as they were (mostly) White and not a native member of the Royal Family. **This was racism, pure and simple.** This fantasy of yours that Hawaii was not a grab is, quite simply, false. And again, I am okay that it was grabbed. It turned out to be the best thing for Hawaii. If not us, then Russia, Japan and Britain would have done so. Can you imagine WWII with Hawaii as a Japanese naval base? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/67 "2016-06-09T03:17:50Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > This fantasy of yours that Hawaii was not a grab is, quite simply, false. And again, I am okay that it was grabbed. It turned out to be the best thing for Hawaii. If not us, then Russia, Japan and Britain would have done so. Can you imagine WWII with Hawaii as a Japanese naval base? [Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii) Excerpts: "The overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii began with the coup d’état of January 17, 1893 on the island of Oahu, leading to the end of the hereditary monarchs, **largely at the hands of United States citizens within the kingdom government** under Queen Lili’uokalani and backed by an invasion of U.S. Marines under John L. Stevens. Hawaii was initially reconstituted as an independent republic, but **the ultimate goal of the revolutionaries was the annexation of the islands to the United States, which was finally accomplished in 1898."** “Newly inaugurated President Grover Cleveland called for an investigation into the overthrow. This investigation was conducted by former Congressman James Henderson Blount. Blount concluded in his report on July 17, 1893, ‘United States diplomatic and military representatives had abused their authority and were responsible for the change in government.’ Minister Stevens was recalled, and the military commander of forces in Hawaiʻi was forced to resign his commission. President Cleveland stated, ‘Substantial wrong has thus been done which a due regard for our national character as well as the rights of the injured people requires we should endeavor to repair the monarchy.’ Cleveland further stated in his 1893 State of the Union Address that, ‘Upon the facts developed it seemed to me the only honorable course for our Government to pursue was to undo the wrong that had been done by those representing us and to restore as far as practicable the status existing at the time of our forcible intervention.’ The matter was referred by Cleveland to Congress on December 18, 1893 after the Queen refused to accept amnesty for the traitors as a condition of reinstatement. Hawaii President Sanford Dole was presented a demand for reinstatement by Minister Willis, who had not realized Cleveland had already sent the matter to Congress — Dole flatly refused Cleveland’s demands to reinstate the Queen.” “In 1993, the 100th anniversary of the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii, Congress passed a resolution, which President Bill Clinton signed into law, offering an apology to Native Hawaiians on behalf of the United States for its involvement in the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii. This law is known as the Apology Resolution.” ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/68 "2016-06-09T05:34:17Z")
The '‘Tastebud Map’ of the tongue was a good one. It was even in our textbooks, despite the fact that it had been pretty much debunked by the 1930s. We did the ‘dip a cotton bud in something sweet/salty etc, and touch it to different parts of your tongue’ experiment at school. I couldn’t get it to work, and feared I had a taste-disability or something. ---
**Author:** ![Taco\_the\_cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@Taco\_the\_cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taco_the_cat)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/69 "2016-06-09T16:12:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > _Sorta._ \*One \*of the main causes of Type 2 is obesity, which (at least in theUSA) is often linked to excess sugars intake. > > [http://www.webmd.boots.com/diabetes/type-2-diabetes-guide/type-2-diabetes-symptoms-causes](http://www.webmd.boots.com/diabetes/type-2-diabetes-guide/type-2-diabetes-symptoms-causes) I know, but there are a lot of people who believe that even thin people who eat a lot of sugar get diabetes, that it is a direct cause and not indirect. They believe that is the first and only risk factor. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/70 "2016-06-09T16:22:25Z")
That fuck, shit and posh are acronyms. That “freeze the balls off a brass monkey” has something to do with cannonballs. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/71 "2016-06-09T16:33:48Z")
> [@Taco\_the\_cat](#): > > I know, but there are a lot of people who believe that even thin people who eat a lot of sugar get diabetes, that it is a direct cause and not indirect. They believe that is the first and only risk factor. Neither agreeing nor disagreeing, but clarifying: - Research has shown that drinking sugary drinks is linked to type 2 diabetes. The American Diabetes Association recommends that people should avoid intake of sugar-sweetened beverages to help prevent diabetes.\* [Know Your Facts About Diabetes | American Diabetes Association](http://www.diabetes.org/diabetes-basics/myths/#sthash.XDbxb2sL.dpuf) ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/72 "2016-06-09T17:13:41Z")
> [@Wallaby](#): > > The '‘Tastebud Map’ of the tongue was a good one. It was even in our textbooks, despite the fact that it had been pretty much debunked by the 1930s. I recently came across an [article](http://www.livescience.com/39373-left-brain-right-brain-myth.html) that said that the idea that people are either left-brained (i.e. analytical) or right-brained (i.e. creative) is a myth. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/73 "2016-06-09T17:37:24Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > [Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii) > > Excerpts: "The overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii began with the coup d’état of January 17, 1893 on the island of Oahu, leading to the end of the hereditary monarchs, **largely at the hands of United States citizens within the kingdom government** under Queen Lili’uokalani and backed by an invasion of U.S. Marines under John L. Stevens. Hawaii was initially reconstituted as an independent republic, but **the ultimate goal of the revolutionaries was the annexation of the islands to the United States, which was finally accomplished in 1898."** > > “” The wiki article has been edited over and over, each time to make it more favorable to the Hawaiian nationalists. Since I have shown that the leaders of the coup were all born in Hawaii, the line “largely at the hands of United States citizens” is bogus (of course they all became US citizens!) and misleading. _The leaders were born on the islands._ The “backed by an invasion of U.S. Marines” is also bogus as the Marines didnt back the coup nor did they “invade”.\* They didnt participate at all, not firing a single shot. \* They didnt even get close to the Palace. I have tried to edit the wiki article back to the facts, but like any highly politicized article, this is useless. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/74 "2016-06-09T18:45:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The wiki article has been edited over and over, each time to make it more favorable to the Hawaiian nationalists. Since I have shown that the leaders of the coup were all born in Hawaii, the line “largely at the hands of United States citizens” is bogus (of course they all became US citizens!) and misleading. _The leaders were born on the islands._ > > The “backed by an invasion of U.S. Marines” is also bogus as the Marines didnt back the coup nor did they “invade”.\* They didnt participate at all, not firing a single shot. \* They didnt even get close to the Palace. > > I have tried to edit the wiki article back to the facts, but like any highly politicized article, this is useless. It is true that there was not a great deal of militarhy adventurism in the takeover, it remains a fact that those responsible were wealthy landowners who had American/European ancestry, and may have retained US citizenship despite being born in the islands. And certainly has pro-US sympathies, and agitated to have the US take sovereignty over the Republic of Hawaii. However, the fact that Dole, Thurston, et al were born on the islands (of westernized families with wealth) does not contradict my original statement that “Most people believe Hawaii is just naturally a part of the USA” is based on an unfounded assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/75 "2016-06-09T19:44:32Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > …may have retained US citizenship despite being born in the islands… This seems to be a big part of the debate. Were the Hawaiian born “white people” U.S. citizens or Hawaiian citizens? ---
**Author:** ![divemaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/divemaster/32/78_2.png) [@divemaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/divemaster)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/76 "2016-06-09T20:00:43Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Sleeping with a fan on will kill you My wife swears by this one. “You’ll die! \*Everyone \*knows that!” Which makes for trouble in the divemaster household as I like to run a fan while couch potato-ing, and often fall asleep. She also believes that putting a microwave safe plate or bowl in the microwave will put cancer in your food. That washing dishwasher safe tupperware in the dishwasher will (somehow) give you cancer. That drinking bottled water on a hot day will give you cancer. There are more. Many more. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/77 "2016-06-09T20:11:26Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > This seems to be a big part of the debate. Were the Hawaiian born “white people” U.S. citizens or Hawaiian citizens? You can be both you know. if you are born outside the USA to American parents, you are a US citizen. However, they were all (also) Hawaiian citizens- except after Queen Liliuokalani decided that anyone who was white could not be a citizen- or own land. (Pretty damn racist, eh?) That is what precipitated the coup. In this the Queen had no real support. She also wanted to bring back what was in effect a absolute monarchy and the taboo system- neither of which was very popular with anyone but the Royal family. Yes, of course the Committee of Safety was pro-annexation, but they really couldnt get much done about it, they had only limited support. _Until_ Queen Liliuokalani went power mad and provided them with the perfect excuse and backing of most of the other natives. So, Queen Liliuokalani had to go, her coup and unilateral abrogation of the Constitution was unpopular with _everyone_ but the Royals. Did the Annexation Club seize this opportunity to make their case for US annexation? Sure, of course they did. So? In any case " (Hawaii) \*came to be American because American interests brutally overthrew a peaceful democratic monarchy." \*is patently false. Her Monarchy was not in any way shape or form “democratic” and the overthrow was hardly “brutal”, with but a single casualty. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2016, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553/78 "2016-06-09T20:27:22Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Most people believe Hawaii is just naturally a part of the USA. But Hawaiians of Japanese ancestry still outnumber Hawaiians of American ancestry. It came to be American because American interests brutally overthrew a peaceful democratic monarchy. Hawaii is further west than French Tahiti, and Los Angeles is closer to Cuba than to Hawaii. > [@Senegoid](#): > > It’s somewhat mythical to believe that South Pacific islanders were, in general, peaceful. They were actually warlike, often invading neighboring islands. > > The Hawaiian monarchy may have evolved into a more settled peaceful regime ever since King Kamehameha I of the Big Island conquered the other islands and unified them, but it was brutal. There is a famous touristy vista point in the hills behind Honolulu overlooking a cliff and into a large beautiful verdant canyon, where Kam cornered the Oahu defenders and forced them all off that cliff. > > By the time of Kalakaua and Queen Liliuokalani, things may have settled somewhat. > > I’m not so sure if American commercial interests (the C&H Sugar family, or maybe the Dole Pineapple family) brutally overthrew them. As I learned it, the Hawaiian royalty were rather naive in the ways of the bigger world of geopolitics, and were dazzled by the trappings of royalty that they saw when they visited England. They were easily bought out by the big money interests – sort of like the legend of the Indians selling Manhattan to the colonists for a handful of glass beads. > [@Wendell\_Wagner](#): > > jtur88 writes: > > \> Most people believe Hawaii is just naturally a part of the USA. But Hawaiians of > \> Japanese ancestry still outnumber Hawaiians of American ancestry. > > I’m not sure what you mean here, but the racial/ethnic breakdown of the population of the state of Hawaii (I assume as of the 2010 census) is as follows: > > Non-Hispanic White, 22.7% > Non-Hispanic Black, 1.5% > Non-Hispanic American Indian and Alaska Native, 0.2% > Non-Hispanic Asian, 37.7% > Non-Hispanic Pacific Islander (including Native Hawaiian), 9.4% > Hispanic of any race, 8.9% > Non-Hispanic mixture of Asian and Pacific Islander, 9.4% > Other, 10.2% > > (I just quote the statistics. I don’t make up the groups. I quoted the statistics from one website. Others may differ.) > > So if you’re trying to say that the population of the state is mostly still descendants (mostly Asians and Pacific Islanders) of the people who were there before it became a territory of the U.S., as opposed to the descendants of those who arrived from elsewhere after it became a territory, I’m not sure this is true or not. Besides those Hawaiians who consider themselves to be of Japanese ancestry, other Asian and Pacific Islander ancestries which are significant percentages of the state’s population include Filipino, Chinese, Samoan, and Korean. At what point did each of these groups arrive there? I don’t know. Do you? > [@jtur88](#): > > No, I don’t know. But the gross total for all groups that could be of American/European descent (including Other) tops out at 43.5%, so I do know that it would be difficult to make the point that “most” Hawaiians are of “American” ancestral origin. Without “other”, its only 1/3. Which was my point in questioning America’s “natural” claim to the islands. > [@DrDeth](#): > > _sigh_ this again. > > No. Hawaii was getting along pretty well. Yes, there were quite a few “white men” in leadership positions, but many of them, like Lorrin A. Thurston, had been born there. In fact\* his parents\* were born in the Islands. A Constitution was in place that gave these men votes, limited the Monarchy and etc. > > Queen Liliuokalani decided unilaterally to abrogate that Constitution, and bring back a Absolute Monarchy, complete with no votes or rights for anyone white (even if they had been born there, which is \*pretty damn racist), \*the Taboo system, and even all land belonging to the Crown. > > Pretty much, no one supported her. So when Thurston and the Committee of Safety (mostly men who were born in the islands) marched on the capital and overthru the deranged Monarch, no one lifted a hand to stop them, (except one policeman who was shot.) The Palace Guards surrendered without even a show of resistance. > > American marines _were_ landed to protect the peace but took no part in the coup. They never fired a shot, did not occupy the Palace, etc. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Her Monarchy was not in any way shape or form “democratic” and the overthrow was hardly “brutal”, with but a single casualty. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I see you learned nothing [from my previous post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18905734&postcount=53). > [@DrDeth](#): > > I couldnt learn anything since your post was wrong. :\* I lived in Hawaii and am very aware of the history. It was a total scam by the pineapple barons, all of them American. One of them, Lorrin Thurston, headed the provisional government that illegally overthrew Queen Liliuokalani in 1893\* > > Lorrin Thurston was **not American**. He was born and raised in the Kingdom of Hawaiʻi, and his parents were also born there, His father was Speaker of the house of representatives of the Kingdom of Hawaii. > > Other of these "all American"s you claim were: > William Richards Castle was born in **Honolulu** March 19, 1849. > William Owen Smith born August 4, 1848 in Kōloa on the island of **Kauaʻi.** > and of course > Sanford Dole was born April 23, 1844 in **Honolulu.** > > _These men were Hawaiians,_ not Americans. Just because their skin was lighter color, doesnt make them not born there. > > All of these men would have lost the right to vote, and even had their property confiscated by the Queen as they were (mostly) White and not a native member of the Royal Family. **This was racism, pure and simple.** > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > This fantasy of yours that Hawaii was not a grab is, quite simply, false. And again, I am okay that it was grabbed. It turned out to be the best thing for Hawaii. If not us, then Russia, Japan and Britain would have done so. Can you imagine WWII with Hawaii as a Japanese naval base? > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > [Overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overthrow_of_the_Kingdom_of_Hawaii) > > Excerpts: "The overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii began with the coup d’état of January 17, 1893 on the island of Oahu, leading to the end of the hereditary monarchs, **largely at the hands of United States citizens within the kingdom government** under Queen Lili’uokalani and backed by an invasion of U.S. Marines under John L. Stevens. Hawaii was initially reconstituted as an independent republic, but **the ultimate goal of the revolutionaries was the annexation of the islands to the United States, which was finally accomplished in 1898."** > > “Newly inaugurated President Grover Cleveland called for an investigation into the overthrow. This investigation was conducted by former Congressman James Henderson Blount. Blount concluded in his report on July 17, 1893, ‘United States diplomatic and military representatives had abused their authority and were responsible for the change in government.’ Minister Stevens was recalled, and the military commander of forces in Hawaiʻi was forced to resign his commission. President Cleveland stated, ‘Substantial wrong has thus been done which a due regard for our national character as well as the rights of the injured people requires we should endeavor to repair the monarchy.’ Cleveland further stated in his 1893 State of the Union Address that, ‘Upon the facts developed it seemed to me the only honorable course for our Government to pursue was to undo the wrong that had been done by those representing us and to restore as far as practicable the status existing at the time of our forcible intervention.’ The matter was referred by Cleveland to Congress on December 18, 1893 after the Queen refused to accept amnesty for the traitors as a condition of reinstatement. Hawaii President Sanford Dole was presented a demand for reinstatement by Minister Willis, who had not realized Cleveland had already sent the matter to Congress — Dole flatly refused Cleveland’s demands to reinstate the Queen.” > > “In 1993, the 100th anniversary of the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii, Congress passed a resolution, which President Bill Clinton signed into law, offering an apology to Native Hawaiians on behalf of the United States for its involvement in the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii. This law is known as the Apology Resolution.” > [@DrDeth](#): > > The wiki article has been edited over and over, each time to make it more favorable to the Hawaiian nationalists. Since I have shown that the leaders of the coup were all born in Hawaii, the line “largely at the hands of United States citizens” is bogus (of course they all became US citizens!) and misleading. _The leaders were born on the islands._ > > The “backed by an invasion of U.S. Marines” is also bogus as the Marines didnt back the coup nor did they “invade”.\* They didnt participate at all, not firing a single shot. \* They didnt even get close to the Palace. > > I have tried to edit the wiki article back to the facts, but like any highly politicized article, this is useless. > [@jtur88](#): > > It is true that there was not a great deal of militarhy adventurism in the takeover, it remains a fact that those responsible were wealthy landowners who had American/European ancestry, and may have retained US citizenship despite being born in the islands. And certainly has pro-US sympathies, and agitated to have the US take sovereignty over the Republic of Hawaii. > > However, the fact that Dole, Thurston, et al were born on the islands (of westernized families with wealth) does not contradict my original statement that “Most people believe Hawaii is just naturally a part of the USA” is based on an unfounded assumption. > [@Moriarty](#): > > This seems to be a big part of the debate. Were the Hawaiian born “white people” U.S. citizens or Hawaiian citizens? > [@DrDeth](#): > > You can be both you know. if you are born outside the USA to American parents, you are a US citizen. > > However, they were all (also) Hawaiian citizens- except after Queen Liliuokalani decided that anyone who was white could not be a citizen- or own land. (Pretty damn racist, eh?) That is what precipitated the coup. In this the Queen had no real support. She also wanted to bring back what was in effect a absolute monarchy and the taboo system- neither of which was very popular with anyone but the Royal family. > Yes, of course the Committee of Safety was pro-annexation, but they really couldnt get much done about it, they had only limited support. _Until_ Queen Liliuokalani went power mad and provided them with the perfect excuse and backing of most of the other natives. > > So, Queen Liliuokalani had to go, her coup and unilateral abrogation of the Constitution was unpopular with _everyone_ but the Royals. Did the Annexation Club seize this opportunity to make their case for US annexation? Sure, of course they did. So? > > In any case " (Hawaii) \*came to be American because American interests brutally overthrew a peaceful democratic monarchy." \*is patently false. Her Monarchy was not in any way shape or form “democratic” and the overthrow was hardly “brutal”, with but a single casualty. Enough, guys. Feel free to take the Hawaii argument to another thread, but it’s done in here. Drop it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-ducks-quack-doesnt-echo-and-other-weird-shit-people-believe/756553.md?page=3)