# a, e, i, o, u... and sometimes y? I don't think so **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 28, 2000, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194 "2000-07-28T13:24:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/21 "2000-07-28T14:09:20Z")
Oh _my_. You thought perhaps this was just a _myth_? How ever would we pronounce, _rhythm_? ---
**Author:** ![Kiki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kiki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiki)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/22 "2000-07-28T14:15:03Z")
We always bet for sexual favors so it’s a win-win situation but still… I hate to be wrong!! I can’t believe that I’ve gone 25 years without knowing this “rule” in the English language! Maybe I learned it and just blocked it out, I don’t know. Dammit! I hate to lose!! ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/23 "2000-07-28T14:23:34Z")
I have often wondered why y is considered vowell “sometimes.” But I’ve always been on the other side of the issue. Why is it ever considered a consonant (in modern usage)? I will be more than happy to be informed of the errors of my ways. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/24 "2000-07-28T14:23:44Z")
The master has already covered [this](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_246.html). ---
**Author:** ![TomH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/90db22/32.png) [@TomH](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TomH)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/25 "2000-07-28T14:26:12Z")
_Crwth_ is the Welsh word for the three- or six-stringed violin which is called in English a _crouth_ or _crowd_. I think it’s fair to say that _w_ is a vowel in Welsh, but not in English. ---
**Author:** ![Frannie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Frannie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frannie)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/26 "2000-07-28T14:53:40Z")
**From Merriam-Webster:** vow\*el (noun) [Middle English, from Middle French vouel, from Latin vocalis – more at VOCALIC] First appeared 14th Century 1 : one of a class of speech sounds in the articulation of which the oral part of the breath channel is not blocked and is not constricted enough to cause audible friction; broadly : the one most prominent sound in a syllable 2 : a letter or other symbol representing a vowel – usu. used in English of a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y **From Frannie, the elementary school teacher:** _Y_ is a vowel in words such as _cry, baby, \* and_hungry.\* _Y_ is not a vowel in words such as \*yarn, yellow, \* and _yours._ ---
**Author:** ![Frannie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Frannie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frannie)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/27 "2000-07-28T15:05:20Z")
[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/lions/songs/sometimes\_y.html](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/lions/songs/sometimes_y.html) There, one can listen to a song entitled _Sometimes Y_ by Paul Jacobs & Sarah Durkee. My favorite part is this: \*Five little vowels A E I O U When you got a couple consonants Nothing else will do. H-A-T hat H-O-T hot L-E-T let L-I-T lit I love them all a real lot L-O-T lot. Oh, and sometimes Y Y don’t you cry. You’re not a full-time vowel But don’t throw in your towel My little sometimes Y.\* (OK, I’ll shut up now. It’s just that this is such an adorable li’l song. I think I’ve had enough of summer vacation. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/28 "2000-07-28T15:25:31Z")
With all due respect for Cecil, I’m not impressed by examples such as ‘cow’ where the ‘w’ is supposedly a vowel. If it needs to piggyback on another vowel (the ‘o’) to act as one itself, it may rate some special linguistic category (semivowel, dipthong), but it’s certainly a different critter from the other vowels, which are all capable of acting alone, as if they were a crazed assassin. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/29 "2000-07-28T15:30:02Z")
Frannie said: > [@](#): > > Y is not a vowel in words such as yarn, yellow, and yours. and I don’t ever want to argue with Frannie. 🙂 So can you explain a little bit the reasoning behind this? In each of these words it sounds to me like the y has a long e sound that (quickly) preceeds the coming vowell. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/30 "2000-07-28T15:31:30Z")
**Rachelle** Wanna make a bet 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Frannie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Frannie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frannie)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/31 "2000-07-28T16:09:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by So Far So Good \* > \*\*Frannie said: > > > [@](#): > > > > Y is not a vowel in words such as yarn, yellow, and yours. > > and I don’t ever want to argue with Frannie. 🙂 > > So can you explain a little bit the reasoning behind this? In each of these words it sounds to me like the y has a long e sound that (quickly) preceeds the coming vowell.\*\* The teacher is always right. Just **shush**. 😉 You have me mumbling “y words” now. Geeeeeeeeeez (Truly though, I don’t hear any long e sound in \*yarn, yellow, \*and _yours_. You hear a long e?) ---
**Author:** ![Dan\_Ervin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ea666f/32.png) [@Dan\_Ervin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan_Ervin)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/32 "2000-07-28T16:20:15Z")
labradorian - Sorry, my boss walked in and I was typing fast so I could post before he noticed what was on my screen. I’ll paint a big red “L” on my forhead (for “Loser”) and sit in the corner now. ---
**Author:** ![labradorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3ec8ea/32.png) [@labradorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/labradorian)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/33 "2000-07-28T16:27:53Z")
I don’t like TM’s explanation of “semi-vowels”. Y and W are semi-vowels not because they swing both ways, but because of their phonetic characteristics. These sounds are the elision between two vowels. It is the _sounds_ (IPA [j] and [w], IIRC) that are semi-vowels, not the _letters_ Y and W. In a language with an alphabet where J is used to represent the Y-sound, and there is no Y at all to represent a vowel, the J is still a semi-vowel. ---
**Author:** ![Kiki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kiki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiki)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/34 "2000-07-28T16:29:25Z")
So have I lost the bet or not. I said that Y isn’t a “real” vowel and he said it is considered a vowel when used in words such as cry, shy, try, etc. So technically, we’re both right. Call it a tie I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Frannie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Frannie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frannie)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/35 "2000-07-28T16:40:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rachelle \* > \*\*Matt said that Y is considered a vowel sometimes because of the sound… such as SHY, CRY, etc. I told him he was full of shit. I have never heard of such a thing. > > We made a bet and I told him that I would check it out and thought that I would come here first before calling my old English teacher. I’m pretty sure that I am but I wondered if any of you dopers had ever heard of this “Y being a vowel sometimes” rule in English.\*\* Um, I don’t think it’s a tie; his argument is that _y_ is “sometimes” considered a vowel, right? (It’s a good thing yours wasn’t a monetary wager. ;)) ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/36 "2000-07-28T16:42:09Z")
I think you are going to have to concede Rachelle. The key thing to understand is that consonents and vowels are classifications of sounds. Letters are merely a means of representing those sounds. While in English a letter may represent more than one sound it has just worked out that for 24 of the letters the represented sounds are all in one category or the other. Y and W have just developed in our language into representatives of sounds in both categories. Y is a real vowel. Y is also a real consonant. Light is a wave. Light is a particle. See, it all makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Drew\_Blade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/958977/32.png) [@Drew\_Blade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drew_Blade)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/37 "2000-07-28T16:45:21Z")
Frannie–maybe I just talk funny…but without the y, “yarn” would be “arn.” How to describe the difference in the pronunciation between the two? I don’t know!! But for me to put a y there, I start out with an almost e-sound. Do I get to stay after school now? (please?..) ---
**Author:** ![Kiki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kiki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiki)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/38 "2000-07-28T17:14:48Z")
I guess I can concede. I _really_ hate to be wrong though. You’re right too Frannie, it’s a good thing we don’t bet for money. I’d be really upset if I had to give him money for this! Our way of betting makes it so neither one of us loses! I like that much better! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jayron\_32](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/41988e/32.png) [@jayron\_32](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayron_32)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/39 "2000-07-28T17:15:48Z")
Written language alone does NOT count. If the “y” in a written word stands for a vowel sound in the spoken word, then it is a vowel. Thus, in “cry” since it stands for the /ai/ dipthong, it meets the criteria for a vowel. In the word “yes” it stands for the /j/ consonant sound, and so is a consonant. And it depends on your dialect as well. In all seriousness, “r” in many dialects qualifies as a vowel as well. It these cases indistinguishible from the German vowel “oe” as in “Schroedinger”. In many dialects in English, the first and third syllables of this name rhyme. W is tricky, since it depends on your dialect whether or not it is sometimes a vowel. Does “sew” indistinguishable from “so” when spoken? If so, it is a vowel in your dialect. If not, then it is a consonant. “Cwm” is a Welsh word, and so is not often included in discussions of “w” as a vowel. ---
**Author:** ![BlockHead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aca169/32.png) [@BlockHead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlockHead)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-i-o-u-and-sometimes-y-i-dont-think-so/27194/40 "2000-07-28T17:22:49Z")
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