# A&E suspends Phil Robertson over anti-gay remarks **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747 "2013-12-19T18:37:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/541 "2013-12-24T22:05:02Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh? I think _you_ are not paying attention? I have no problem calling someone a bigot when he expresses bigoted beliefs. I’m arguing against someone adhering to traditional church doctrine—and his stating so—being classified as bigoted speech. Why does it make a difference if it’s part of church doctrine? It used to be church doctrine that the Jews, as a people, were responsible for the death of Christ. Was that not an anti-Semitic idea, simply because it bore the imprimatur of the church? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/542 "2013-12-24T22:29:04Z")
**magellan01** - this is so damn similar to our debate about whether a claim is racist if the claimer truly believes the claim is based on sound science that it’s uncanny. It doesn’t matter _why_ someone believes that homosexual acts are sinful and morally wrong, it’s a bigoted belief regardless of why they believe it. It doesn’t matter what a particular religion says – there are many Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, Jews, etc., who don’t believe that homosexuality is sinful and morally wrong, so being a part of that religion does not make one bigoted (or make one’s beliefs bigoted). The substance of a claim is what makes it bigoted or not, not the reasons why the claim is made. You can note that I’m not calling anyone a bigot in this post – I’m only speaking of whether certain claims are bigoted. The claim that “homosexual behavior is sinful and morally wrong” is _always bigoted_, no matter why one makes this claim. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/543 "2013-12-24T22:45:50Z")
I am assuming this means that magellan will never, _ever_ criticize a adherent to a different religion to doing something that is within their religion’s guidelines, or at least that they believe to be so, then? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/544 "2013-12-24T23:24:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Shall we craft more “handy” terms like adulteraphobia, embezzlerphobia, so you can have other ways to make Christians seem like bad people? “Oh no, I wouldn’t say their _bad_ people, they’re just \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_aphobes”. Of course, first you might have to engage in a prolonged campaign to get people to accept your bastardized term so the use broadly triggers emotion rather than accuracy, sense, or fairness. Hey **magellan01**. Can you name me any pertinent differences between embezzlement, lying, murder, rape, and homophobia? Any at all? Any slight difference between those acts? Nice pick on adultery, by the way; half of what we consider “adultery”, that is the “cheating on your significant other” part belongs clearly in the list next to lying; the other half, that is the “having sex before being married” belongs next to homophobia. Whoops, gave you a clue right there. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/545 "2013-12-24T23:55:28Z")
Whoops, that’s supposed to be homosexuality, not homophobia. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/546 "2013-12-25T02:49:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh? I think _you_ are not paying attention? Is that a question? I don’t know what you’re thinking. > [@magellan01](#): > > I have no problem calling someone a bigot when he expresses bigoted beliefs. I’m arguing against someone adhering to traditional church doctrine—and his stating so—being classified as bigoted speech. So it’s ok to hold bigoted views as long as they are only expressed as “adhering to traditional church doctrine?” Am I getting that right? And are you trying to claim that’s what’s happening in Robertson’s situation? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/547 "2013-12-25T04:03:29Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > I am assuming this means that magellan will never, _ever_ criticize a adherent to a different religion to doing something that is within their religion’s guidelines, or at least that they believe to be so, then? So long as they’re not Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/548 "2013-12-25T05:15:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why does it make a difference if it’s part of church doctrine? It used to be church doctrine that the Jews, as a people, were responsible for the death of Christ. Was that not an anti-Semitic idea, simply because it bore the imprimatur of the church? How many Christians do you think are Christians _due to the part of the doctrine_ that says that homosexual acts are sinful? What percent would you guess? I say it’s close to zero, in that if their church changed their stance on homosexual acts being sinful, that they would continue to associate themselves with that church. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/549 "2013-12-25T05:16:52Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > I am assuming this means that magellan will never, _ever_ criticize a adherent to a different religion to doing something that is within their religion’s guidelines, or at least that they believe to be so, then? You assume wrongly. I left you a clue as to why. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/550 "2013-12-25T05:22:10Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So long as they’re not Muslim. I really don’t give a shit what people think, but if a particular group finds it an excellent pastime to actually blow up innocent women and children, mutilate young girls, kill their offspring that dishonor them by dating outside of their religion, stone women accused of adultery, etc., those people need to be called out for the murderous, animalistic, atavistic throwbacks that they are. I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree on that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/551 "2013-12-25T06:04:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How many Christians do you think are Christians _due to the part of the doctrine_ that says that homosexual acts are sinful? What percent would you guess? I say it’s close to zero, in that if their church changed their stance on homosexual acts being sinful, that they would continue to associate themselves with that church. I agree, it’s probably zero. I don’t understand why you think this matters. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/552 "2013-12-25T06:13:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I really don’t give a shit what people think, but if a particular group finds it an excellent pastime to actually blow up innocent women and children, mutilate young girls, kill their offspring that dishonor them by dating outside of their religion, stone women accused of adultery, etc., those people need to be called out for the murderous, animalistic, atavistic throwbacks that they are. I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree on that. Yes, you’re correct that Christians do all those things, but it’s ridiculous to slur all Christians because of that. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/553 "2013-12-25T08:04:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I really don’t give a shit what people think, but if a particular group finds it an excellent pastime to actually blow up innocent women and children, mutilate young girls, kill their offspring that dishonor them by dating outside of their religion, stone women accused of adultery, etc., those people need to be called out for the murderous, animalistic, atavistic throwbacks that they are. I guess you and I will just have to agree to disagree on that. How you feel about people doing that sort of stuff because of their religion is _exactly_ how I, and many others, feel about people who insult, disown, attack and kill gay people because of their religion. Which religion it is doesn’t really matter, it’s the actions that count, not the reason. Bigotry and hatred are wrong no matter who does it, and no matter for what reason. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/554 "2013-12-25T13:33:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The question is, if someone says. “I’m a Christian. And Christian doctrine says that homosexuality, adultery, etc. is a sin”, does that make that person a bigot? Unreasonable? It makes him one of the many, many who use claims of religious doctrine as a cover story for maintaining bigotry, or other reprehensible beliefs, so yes. If you’re really not aware of how often and how easily religion is used as a rationalization, well, you need to be. > [@](#): > > (Let’s leave aside, for now, the possible existence of Christian organization that, oxymoronically, does not adhere to Christian doctrine. Why? What is “traditional Christian doctrine” to you? That which has been used as a rationalization (see aforesaid) in recent centuries, or that which comes from Christ’s teachings themselves? If the latter, then please note that Christ said nothing whatever about homosexuality, but quite a bit about loving our neighbors as ourselves, being humble, and helping each other. > [@magellan01](#): > > Oh? I think _you_ are not paying attention? I have no problem calling someone a bigot when he expresses bigoted beliefs. That is hardly the sentiment of the post quoted above. > [@](#): > > I’m arguing against someone adhering to traditional church doctrine—and his stating so—being classified as bigoted speech. You seem to have no problem doing that when the practices you describe as “church doctrine” are those of the more backward areas of countries where Islam is the dominant faith. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/555 "2013-12-25T13:33:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I agree, it’s probably zero. I don’t understand why you think this matters. My point is that if one believes that a person is a bigot because he ascribes to a religion which holds the position that homosexual acts are sinful, yet that person would continue to be a member of that religion even if it changed its stance on the acts being sinful, then one cannot fairly say that a person is a homophobe or a bigot due to their adherence to their particular religion. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/556 "2013-12-25T13:35:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Yes, you’re correct that Christians do all those things, but it’s ridiculous to slur all Christians because of that. Oh, you’re talking about non-reality world. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/557 "2013-12-25T13:37:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How you feel about people doing that sort of stuff because of their religion is _exactly_ how I, and many others, feel about people who insult, disown, attack and kill gay people because of their religion. Which religion it is doesn’t really matter, it’s the actions that count, not the reason. > > Bigotry and hatred are wrong no matter who does it, and no matter for what reason. I generally agree. But here’s a question: is mere adherence to a religion that believes that homosexual acts are sinful an “action that counts”? ---
**Author:** ![Truman\_Burbank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@Truman\_Burbank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truman_Burbank)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/558 "2013-12-25T14:20:11Z")
well, in the case of Christianity, there are churches that condemn gays, and those that welcome. If you ‘vote with your feet’, either choice reflects your beliefs, yes? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/559 "2013-12-25T14:21:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My point is that if one believes that a person is a bigot because he ascribes to a religion which holds the position that homosexual acts are sinful, yet that person would continue to be a member of that religion even if it changed its stance on the acts being sinful, then one cannot fairly say that a person is a homophobe or a bigot due to their adherence to their particular religion. Whether or not the person is a bigot, if he/she believes that homosexual behavior is sinful and morally wrong, then he/she holds at least one bigoted belief. It doesn’t matter why they hold this belief – and no religion has monolithic beliefs, despite what many of their leaders say. Many Christians don’t hold this belief, and some do. Those that do hold bigoted beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747/560 "2013-12-25T14:25:12Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I generally agree. But here’s a question: is mere adherence to a religion that believes that homosexual acts are sinful an “action that counts”? Religions don’t believe things, people do. There are many Christians who hold disparate beliefs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-e-suspends-phil-robertson-over-anti-gay-remarks/676747.md?page=29)