# A Eunuch Situation in India **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 28, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578 "2006-05-28T23:54:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2006, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/1 "2006-05-28T23:54:25Z")
My eyebrows were raised today (despite all the Botox under them) by this article in the _Telegraph_: > [@](#): > > India’s Eunuchs are calling for a fair share of government jobs after centuries of social rejection and ridicule, claiming that they could bring honesty to politics in a country riddled with corruption . . . India’s 500,000 castrated men - the largest such group in the world - have lived for centuries in their own private world, a far cry from the days when they used to guard Mogul harems. Some are impressively beautiful, with curvy figures and cascades of black hair. Others look like grandfathers in drag, their thick stubble and hairy backs bursting out of lavish, brightly-coloured saris . . . But recently eunuchs have begun to emerge from the fringes of society by standing in municipal elections. “I want people to treat us like human beings, not laugh or snigger when they see me,” said Asha Singh at last week’s gathering . . . The Haryana government has set aside an unspecified number of jobs for eunuchs. Now the men hope that other state governments will follow suit. Whu-_huh_? Are these transgendered people? Men unwillingly castrated as children (and if so, _why?_)? Is this akin to the female “circumcision” of Africa? Does anyone know anything about the Indian eunuchs, and if India has any kind of policy toward the transgendered (MtF or FtM)? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/2 "2006-05-29T00:01:54Z")
Don’t know TOO much about them, but the two terms you’ll want to search for are aruvani and hijra. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/3 "2006-05-29T01:11:20Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Whu-_huh_? Are these transgendered people? Men unwillingly castrated as children (and if so, _why?_)? Is this akin to the female “circumcision” of Africa? Does anyone know anything about the Indian eunuchs, and if India has any kind of policy toward the transgendered (MtF or FtM)? Look up the terms Dorjän said, especially Hijra. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra\_(South\_Asia)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_%28South_Asia%29) IIRC A. Crowley even wrote about them when he was there for one of the Durga festivals (perhaps the one where he alleged he shot at reputed robed kidnappers in an alleyway…) There are several books on transsexualism and transgenderism throughout history you should look up if you want to learn more about it. I’ll met Johanna knows something about the subject. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/4 "2006-05-29T01:15:41Z")
Eunuchs have been “spayed/neutered/gelded”: the testicles have been resected. This is analgous to an ovarectomy in women: resection of the ovaries. Female “circumcision”, as usually practiced, is a combination of a clitorectomy(removal of the clitoris), as well as tightening of the vulva/vaginal opening, rendering penetative intercourse painful. Which, given the absence of a clitoris, is also practically guaranteed to be an orgasm free event. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/5 "2006-05-29T02:11:02Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > There are several books on transsexualism and transgenderism throughout history you should look up if you want to learn more about it… Isn’t that yet another example of ludicrous PC-ness? To equate transsexualism or transgenderism with voluntary sterilization with no intent to change sex or gender seems quite absurd to me. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/6 "2006-05-29T02:34:48Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > Isn’t that yet another example of ludicrous PC-ness? To equate transsexualism or transgenderism with voluntary sterilization with no intent to change sex or gender seems quite absurd to me. It appears to me that the article quoted in the OP is speaking of hijra, not just “eunuchs”, even though that word is used in the article. And the hijra as a subject matter are considered to be a very valid part of TS/TG history. If you believe the OP is talking about pure eunuchs, that is, men who simply are castrated either involuntarily or voluntarily, then you’re correct. However, I think the OP is pretty clearly not about that subject due to the quoted content. Male eunuchs generally are not wearing “brightly coloured saris”, for example. So what’s your basis for your thinking it’s “ludicrous PC-ness”? Do you feel that the OP is not about Indian hijra? Or do you feel that Indian hijra are not a valid topic within the scope of TS/TG issues? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2006, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/7 "2006-05-29T04:47:24Z")
The **Perfect Master** speaks: [Why are Indian Eunuchs warned about unsafe sex?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_212.html) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2006, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/8 "2006-06-01T02:34:50Z")
Thank you, **Una Persson**. I have a good book that explains about this… _Gender Diversity: Crosscultural Variations_ by Serena Nanda. The same author has a book out titled _Neither Man Nor Woman: The Hijras of India_ - which I haven’t read but would like to. Bonus answer: If you want to read a novel with a fictional hijra character, I recommend _Delhi_ by Khushwant Singh. He narrates the frame story in his own voice, and the hijra is his girlfriend who takes him out for walks and asks him interesting questions. **Una Persson** was right about the confused nomenclature of hijras and the error in calling them “eunuchs” which is just plain wrong choice of words. The status of “eunuch” is long obsolete now that feudal harems no longer exist in modern India. Hijras are trans women. This article shows that many writers and journalists haven’t a clue about transgender. Read what hijras have to say about themselves in knowledgeable sources, like Nanda’s books. It’s rare that a journalist ever gets this subject accurately. Almost every time I see a news story on trans people, the journalist misunderstands the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/9 "2006-06-03T13:09:38Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > **Una Persson** was right about the confused nomenclature of hijras and the error in calling them “eunuchs” which is just plain wrong choice of words. The status of “eunuch” is long obsolete now that feudal harems no longer exist in modern India. Hijras are trans women. This article shows that many writers and journalists haven’t a clue about transgender. Read what hijras have to say about themselves in knowledgeable sources, like Nanda’s books. It’s rare that a journalist ever gets this subject accurately. Almost every time I see a news story on trans people, the journalist misunderstands the subject. My understanding, possibly incorrect, is that hijra are often very secretive, either due to culture or due to self-preservation, or both. Somewhere I have an article (I think by the WSJ of all places) where a reporter spoke of a wait of “weeks” before they were able to talk to hijra who were willing to talk to an outsider. It could be that some reporters give up too easily and either rely on past (possibly incorrect) sources or just make it up based on incorrect information. In fact, when I tried asking (in the past) some of the Indian programmers I had working under me about hijra, 2 of them claimed they had “never heard of such a thing”, and the third claimed that they were a “myth told to tourists”. So it’s possible that they’re not even well-known in some parts of India as well. (Hmm, I see that searching on “hijra” this morning brings up many hits of hijrotica. But then, searching on “margarine” brings up porn links too, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/10 "2006-06-03T13:32:17Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > My understanding, possibly incorrect, is that hijra are often very secretive, either due to culture or due to self-preservation, or both. Somewhere I have an article (I think by the WSJ of all places) where a reporter spoke of a wait of “weeks” before they were able to talk to hijra who were willing to talk to an outsider. It could be that some reporters give up too easily and either rely on past (possibly incorrect) sources or just make it up based on incorrect information. > > In fact, when I tried asking (in the past) some of the Indian programmers I had working under me about hijra, 2 of them claimed they had “never heard of such a thing”, and the third claimed that they were a “myth told to tourists”. So it’s possible that they’re not even well-known in some parts of India as well. > > (Hmm, I see that searching on “hijra” this morning brings up many hits of hijrotica. But then, searching on “margarine” brings up porn links too, so I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.) Hijra Eunuch Hijra Eunuch Hijra Parkay ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/11 "2006-06-03T13:34:05Z")
A Son of the Circus by John Irving revolves somewhat around Hirja’s. Not sure how accurate he is in describing the Hirja’s but he’s usually well researched. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/12 "2006-06-03T18:24:32Z")
Cecil’s answer 1) established that hijra != eunuch, 2) cited Serena Nanda’s books as did I (good call there, Cecil), 3) pronounced tranny sex life to be “weird.” Well, if I was worried about being called “weird,” I would have stayed in the closet. Cecil also was accurate in the description of trannys with religion, who worship a mother goddess. Notice the close correlation of transsexualism with Goddess religion? The similarity of this with certain ancient Middle Eastern Goddess religions is striking, as is the iconography of these goddesses in the Middle East and in India. I know that I’m not supposed to talk about ancient Goddess religion in connection with myself, but there it is. We’re here, we’re queer, _jaya Devi Mata_. Cecil’s note that rural Indians are more accepting of hijras finds a cross-cultural corroboration in _Transgender Warriors_ by Leslie Feinberg, who examined the history of European peasant revolts and found transgender as a significant, continuing feature throughout the centuries. This nexus of transgender and pagan religion seems to predate urban civilization and is more at home in rural paganism, which would explain the rural-urban split concerning hijras noted by Cecil, as well as **Una Persson** ’s modern Indian techies who don’t even want to admit that the phenomenon really exists. Maybe to them it represents a level of backwardness that modern India should have abandoned long ago. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/13 "2006-06-03T18:39:06Z")
The following question is serious. I’ve read that the Thuggee were forbidden from harming women. Did their priests (jemhaddar? I can’t remember the ranks) include hijras in this category? Does anybody know anything about a film with a name roughly darmiyan? Re Eunuchs It was my understanding that there were 3 classes of hijra- Voluntary- Gay men, transwomen, etc Involuntary, born- Those born visibly intersexed. Involuntary, made- While involuntary castration or emasculation doesn’t happen today, there was a time when it did. A eunuch could no longer fulfill the life dictated by his cast. He had to find a new social status. If he was willing to renounce his maleness, the hijras would give him a new family and a new life. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/14 "2006-06-03T19:13:21Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > My understanding, possibly incorrect, is that hijra are often very secretive, either due to culture or due to self-preservation, or both. Somewhere I have an article (I think by the WSJ of all places) where a reporter spoke of a wait of “weeks” before they were able to talk to hijra who were willing to talk to an outsider. It could be that some reporters give up too easily and either rely on past (possibly incorrect) sources or just make it up based on incorrect information. > > In fact, when I tried asking (in the past) some of the Indian programmers I had working under me about hijra, 2 of them claimed they had “never heard of such a thing”, and the third claimed that they were a “myth told to tourists”. So it’s possible that they’re not even well-known in some parts of India as well. When I was in India, some hijra came on to one of the trains I was on. For reference, on Indian trains it’s quite common for people to hop on and ride one or two stops while they walk up and down the aisle begging, performing services (sweeping floors- which it’s perfectly acceptable to throw your garbage on- is a big one) and selling food and trinkets. They came on singing and clapping, and walked up and down the aisles acting flamboyantly and talking in a very exaggerated manner to each and every person. Their manner was very much like you’d expect from an American drag queen. There was no mistaking who they were. No Indian woman acts like that. Their make-up, clothing and jewelry was also quite exaggerated. After announcing their presence, they went to each passenger and solicted money. Unlike the endless parade of cripples and lepers, who are largly ignored, each person on the train gave money to them. If you didn’t give or gave to little, the hijra would stand there and (I assume) berate you until you did. The whole thing was a little menacing, and everyone seemed relieved when they left. When I gave some money (seemed like the thing to do) a fellow passenger asked “You know this? Do they have this in America?” All I could answer was “Kind of…” He seemed kind of embarrassed about me seeing the whole thing- which may account for your tactiturn co-workers. From what I understand, they have religious signifigance and are important to certain ceremonies. However, they also have a bit of a “bad luck” element and are not usually welcome visitors since you don’t want to invoke their wrath and essentially have to pay them off. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/15 "2006-06-03T21:56:15Z")
Well, all three of the programmers I hired came from Bangalore, which might be why. **even sven** , thank you for sharing that experience. That certainly is at odds with what I was remembering from the past. I wonder if there is another qualifier for differentiation, such as hijra who must fund-raise and be in public much, versus those who try not to draw attention to themselves. I guess it could have just been another case, like I mentioned, of the article I was reading not giving a complete or accurate account. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/16 "2006-06-04T02:46:07Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > It appears to me that the article quoted in the OP is speaking of hijra, not just “eunuchs”, even though that word is used in the article. And the hijra as a subject matter are considered to be a very valid part of TS/TG history. > > If you believe the OP is talking about pure eunuchs, that is, men who simply are castrated either involuntarily or voluntarily, then you’re correct. However, I think the OP is pretty clearly not about that subject due to the quoted content. Male eunuchs generally are not wearing “brightly coloured saris”, for example. > > So what’s your basis for your thinking it’s “ludicrous PC-ness”? Do you feel that the OP is not about Indian hijra? Or do you feel that Indian hijra are not a valid topic within the scope of TS/TG issues? Taking your final question first, upon investigation of just what “hijra” are (I’d never heard of them before), I would certainly agree that they would fall within the scope of TS/TG. But that’s irrelevant to my previous post. I deny that any average reader would have even _suspected_ that the portion of the cite quoted in the OP wasn’t strictly about eunuchs/castrated men. The article refers exclusively to “India’s Eunuchs”, “India’s 500,000 castrated men”, etc. Furthermore, there isn’t a single reference to “hijra”, and no one who didn’t already know what they were and wasn’t somewhat prejudicially reading them into the quotation would have imagined a TS/TG connection. So I must reject your claim that “the OP is pretty clearly not about [eunuchs] due to the quoted content”. After all, why shouldn’t we believe that simply castrated heterosexual males would wear brightly colored saris? Given that, I felt that introducing what I believe to be the extremely PC subject of gender, TS, and TG into the discussion was unwarranted. And I still feel it was until the subject of hijra was explicitly brought into the thread. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/17 "2006-06-04T02:52:48Z")
**Ambushed** the self identification of Hijras in regards to gender, sex, sexuality ect is entirely relevant to the OP. I don’t think the article uses the word eunuch to be politically correct. I suspect it’s a bad translation (This word ‘hijra’, it is meaning ‘eunuch’) combined with standard dumbing down of an article for the general public. Dopers routinely complain about a virus being described as ‘alive’ rather than ‘viable’. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/18 "2006-06-04T03:19:33Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Hijras are trans women. I am going to argue with you just a little about this: near as I can tell, Hirjras are _analogous_ to trans women, but what they are are Hijras. Gender identity takes such a wonderful and complex diveristy of forms across cultures, and I really think we risk losing some of that if we try to shoehorn other atypical gender classifications into the same set of labels that we have. A sari isn’t an Indian dress, it’s a sari. A bat mitzvah is not a Jewish quinceanera. Kwanza is not African-American Christmas. These things be similar, they may serve many of the same social functions, but they are their own thing and deserve to be approached and evaluated on their own terms. In the same way, a hijras are not transwomen, though there may be many points of comparison. One of my students is Indian, and his reaction to the hirjas is pretty much fear: “They recruit. No, I am serious”. Of course, he grew up in the States and, for all I know, they were like the boogey man that would come and take him away if he didn’t eat his vegetables. That was what his attitude reminded me of. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/19 "2006-06-04T05:05:43Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > I deny that any average reader would have even _suspected_ that the portion of the cite quoted in the OP wasn’t strictly about eunuchs/castrated men. The article refers exclusively to “India’s Eunuchs”, “India’s 500,000 castrated men”, etc. Furthermore, there isn’t a single reference to “hijra”… Oh, really? Did you actually read the article, or did you just assume the OP was the article? From: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/28/weun28.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/05/28/ixnews.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/05/28/weun28.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/05/28/ixnews.html) > [@](#): > > “If the lowest castes get job quotas, then we are even more deserving because we are totally beyond the pale. No one ever gives a **hijra** (eunuch) a job,” said Asha, 50, who does not have a surname, at a rare gathering of about 5,000 eunuchs in Bombay earlier this month. (emphasis added) I knew they were talking about hijra before I spent the 5 seconds to Google the article. Given that this thread has gone on for days, what’s the rationale for you not bothering to read the article? > [@](#): > > …and no one who didn’t already know what they were and wasn’t somewhat prejudicially reading them into the quotation would have imagined a TS/TG connection. So I must reject your claim that “the OP is pretty clearly not about [eunuchs] due to the quoted content”. After all, why shouldn’t we believe that simply castrated heterosexual males would wear brightly colored saris? > > Given that, I felt that introducing what I believe to be the extremely PC subject of gender, TS, and TG into the discussion was unwarranted. And I still feel it was until the subject of hijra was explicitly brought into the thread. It’s ludicrous to suggest that “simply castrated heterosexual males” would generally tend to wear brightly colored saris, especially in a culture such as India. Castration does not in itself feminize men, it has the potential to de-masculinize - there is a profound difference. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578/20 "2006-06-04T09:27:06Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Ambushed** the self identification of Hijras in regards to gender, sex, sexuality ect is entirely relevant to the OP. I don’t deny that this _became_ relevant once hijras were explicitly brought up, but I still strongly deny that hijras, TS, or TG were under discussion from the beginning given the quotation in the OP. And _that’s_ why I complained about TS/TG PC-ness being introduced – _prior_ to the introduction of hijras – in a topic where I felt it was inappropriate. Disconnecting your testicles does NOT, by itself, make one a TS/TG person! > [@DocCathode](#): > > I don’t think the article uses the word eunuch to be politically correct. I don’t think so either, and that’s very much a key to understanding my point. The quoted part of the article speaks **ONLY** of castrated men and does not explicitly refer to hijra. Ergo, TS/TG discussion was clearly unwarranted at the time of my post. It was not the use of the word “eunuch” that I found unduly PC, it was the discussion that emphasized the allegedly TS/TG elements before any foundation was laid that I objected to. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-eunuch-situation-in-india/358578.md?page=2)