# A Federal pay outrage? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299 "2010-11-29T17:37:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/1 "2010-11-29T17:37:23Z")
From what I can tell it appears the following is true. But at the same time I can’t believe it really is. I can understand the politicians allowing this to happen, but why in the world is the populace at large not screaming their outrage? > [@](#): > > The typical compensation for Federal employees is more than double what people in the private sector get paid. Their basic pay averages $81,258 vs only $50,462 in the private sector, but the biggest difference is in pension and health benefits, where the average Federal employee gets $41,791 in benefits vs only $10,589 in the private sector. The TOTAL compensation for a Federal employee is $123,049 (over $10,000 per month), more than double the $61,051 for a Private Sector employee. > > If there are 2.65 Million civilian Federal employees, that’s an EXTRA cost to the taxpayer of over $160 Billion per year, which is more than half the average annual Deficit under G W Bush of $251 Billion per year. > > What makes it even more egregious is that the typical public sector employee has a far less chance of being laid off - in fact it’s almost impossible to fire an incompetent Federal employee because of union rules. While the typical Private Sector employee turnover is every 5 years, the average Public Sector employee keeps their job for 20 years. > > It used to be that a Public Sector employee traded lower pay for better benefits and job security, but now everything is totally lopsided in favor of Public Employees. > The site to verify this information is as follows; > [http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10\_ST\_N.htm](http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/2 "2010-11-29T17:47:47Z")
Comparisons between government pay and non-government pay only make sense if you compare similar jobs. Comparing the pay of all government jobs with all non-government jobs is misleading because a much higher percentage of government jobs are in high-paying professions than is the case with the non-government sector. You don’t find too many fastfood workers, laborers, etc. working for the government. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/3 "2010-11-29T17:48:34Z")
When you do comparisons like this, you need to make sure you aren’t comparing apples with oranges. What might cause the difference is that the typical Federal government job requires more job skills than the typical private sector job, e.g., a higher proportion of government jobs might require college degrees. Another difference might be that more private sector jobs are part-time jobs that don’t offer benefits. Both differences might be caused in part by outsourcing from the government to the private sector: e.g., I suspect that the cleaners in federal buildings may be employed by private firms contracted to do the work, so that they are in the private sector, but essentially aid out of the federal budget. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/4 "2010-11-29T17:49:18Z")
> [@Ring](#): > > From what I can tell it appears the following is true. But at the same time I can’t believe it really is. I can understand the politicians allowing this to happen, but why in the world is the populace at large not screaming their outrage? You know, the Federal workforce generally contains far more lawyers, engineers, and other highly skilled white-collar workers than the American workforce in general. Also, the Federal government tends to contract out services that employ low-paying jobs, like janitors, food service workers, and the like. It isn’t like Uncle Sam makes a practice of paying six-figure salaries to toilet cleaners. All of this explanation is right there in the article you linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/5 "2010-11-29T17:53:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You know, the Federal workforce generally contains far more lawyers, engineers, and other highly skilled white-collar workers than the American workforce in general. Also, the Federal government tends to contract out services that employ low-paying jobs, like janitors, food service workers, and the like. > > It isn’t like Uncle Sam makes a practice of paying six-figure salaries to toilet cleaners. > > All of this explanation is right there in the article you linked to. This. I’m a lawyer working for a large federal agency, and the janitorial and food services staff are all private contractors. As for my own salary - it’s certainly comfortable, but it’s only half what many of my friends in the private sector are making in their first year as BigLaw attorneys. (Not that I’d trade places with them - I enjoy getting to actually see my apartment from time to time.) It would take some doing to make a convincing argument that I’m overpaid. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/6 "2010-11-29T17:54:40Z")
[Here](http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=3992&type=0) is a somewhat dated study by the non-partisan CBO which finds that in 2000, white collar government workers lagged behind similar private sector jobs by 32%, while lower-paying clerical jobs lagged by only 7%. These comparisons appear only to measure wages, not benefits, so bear that in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Goofus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@Goofus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goofus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/7 "2010-11-29T17:58:25Z")
[http://faq.bea.gov/cgi-bin/bea.cfg/php/enduser/std\_adp.php?p\_faqid=320&p\_created=1156971364&p\_sid=j-kzFggk&p\_accessibility=0&p\_redirect=&p\_lva=553&p\_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTEsMTEmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXRzPTQxLDEwNSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PTIuMTA1JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE\*&p\_li=&p\_topview=1](http://faq.bea.gov/cgi-bin/bea.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=320&p_created=1156971364&p_sid=j-kzFggk&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=553&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTEsMTEmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXRzPTQxLDEwNSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PTIuMTA1JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1) > [@](#): > > The mix of occupations held by federal government civilian employees is different from that of occupations held by the entire private-sector workforce. > > […] > > lower-skilled (and lower-paid) positions have been contracted out to private industries > > […] > > some private-sector employees receive no benefits [there’s your outrage] > > […] > > federal compensation estimates include sizable payments for unfunded liabilities ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/8 "2010-11-29T18:06:08Z")
Assuming that the data include defense pay, you also have to consider the hundreds of thousands of military personnel who’ve been earning combat pay, and weren’t (for the most part) during the previous decade. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/9 "2010-11-29T18:06:20Z")
The Feds have very very few part time fast food workers, and a lot of white collar professionals. On a job by job basis, even considering the decent but not generous benefits, Federal white collar professionals earn about 25% less than their Private counterparts. Now, yes, the Job Security is a nice bene, and certainly that’s worth something. And, that site uses some pretty bogus comparisons: they are comparing health benefits to all employees in the workfroce (which includes a lot of part-time and temp workers- who generall do not get health benefits) to the Federal workforce (again, mostly white collar professionals and clerical workers, who in the private sector do get health benefits). Next they have their facts wrong too: “_in fact it’s almost impossible to fire an incompetent Federal employee because of union rules_” Although there are Federal Employeee “Unions”, they are more “employee associates” having no power to strike, etc- they mostly exist to provide another Health inurance choice. What prevetns government employees from being fired at will is the fact they are mostly Civil Service Employees, and that was set up to stop the nefarious and then-common practice of firing all the Govt employees who did not actively support the candidate currently in power. (They still do this at the top echelons= “appointed politicians” come and go with the administration. Of course as they have really high paying jobs and enough power and connections to guarantee them a nice job in Private industry, we don’t weep for them so much). There’s no real outrage except amoung the idiot Tea-partiers that spread this stupid false factiod. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/10 "2010-11-29T18:11:40Z")
This sort of manufactured outrage comes up periodically and is shamelessly pandering to Tea Party-like knotheads who get their panties all in a twist over it. As others have pointed out, many of the jobs have no counterpoint in civilian life. How many four-star generals do you know at your company? I worked as a facilities manager for the U.S. Department of State and made $50K. I also did it as a civilian and made $110K. Lastly, I would believe nothing I read in the USA Today. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/11 "2010-11-29T18:19:32Z")
Some of the rules are also a little wonky. For example, some jobs give a higher entry salary for holding an advanced degree (master or doctorate), and others pay a higher salary for prior military service. And, forcryinoutloud, it’s not like the salary regulations are a big secret. They’re public. So I’m not seeing the outrage here. ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/12 "2010-11-29T18:21:04Z")
Wow, that was fast, and has certainly tamped down my outrage to some extent, but, nonetheless, assuming the following is true, it still seems like something is out of whack here. > [@](#): > > •Benefits. Federal workers received average benefits worth $41,791 in 2009. Most of this was the government’s contribution to pensions. Employees contributed an additional $10,569. > > •Pay. The average federal salary has grown 33% faster than inflation since 2000. USA TODAY reported in March that the federal government pays an average of 20% more than private firms for comparable occupations. The analysis did not consider differences in experience and education. > > •Total compensation. Federal compensation has grown 36.9% since 2000 after adjusting for inflation, compared with 8.8% for private workers. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/13 "2010-11-29T18:32:11Z")
1. Hourly workers in the private sector don’t receive pension or other benefits at all, and as note above, much of the government’s “contribution” to worker pensions isn’t actually funded. 2. The author of the piece, Dennis Cauchon, appears to have a habit of writing articles about Federal budget issues full of unsubstantiated numbers. Here’s [a blog entry](http://www.optimist123.com/optimist/2007/05/taxpayers_on_th.html) discussing another example. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/14 "2010-11-29T19:01:31Z")
> [@Ring](#): > > Wow, that was fast, and has certainly tamped down my outrage to some extent, but, nonetheless, assuming the following is true, it still seems like something is out of whack here. > > •Benefits. Federal workers received average benefits worth $41,791 in 2009. Most of this was the government’s contribution to pensions. Employees contributed an additional $10,569. > > •Pay. The average federal salary has grown 33% faster than inflation since 2000. USA TODAY reported in March that the federal government pays an average of 20% more than private firms for comparable occupations. The analysis did not consider differences in experience and education. > > •Total compensation. Federal compensation has grown 36.9% since 2000 after adjusting for inflation, compared with 8.8% for private workers. As has been explained here and in the article, the federal workforce is different from the private work force. We feds don’t have many minimum-wage jobs. Example, I work in a federal lab where I and most of my colleagues have Ph.D.'s or master’s degrees in engineering. Your first paragraph notes that most of the discrepancy between fed/private benefits is in pension contributions; we earn high salaries, presto, we get large pension contributions. The same will be true for people in the private sector who earn similarly large salaries. Salaries growing 33% faster than inflation since 2000? The _average_ may be growing like that, but no doubt this is because of increased outsourcing over the past decade. Get rid of the low-paying jobs, and the average salary goes up, even though any individual salary hasn’t increased. I’ve been a federal employee for over ten years now, and my annual cost-of-living adjustment has typically been about 3 percent, keeping track with inflation. To be fair, I’ve been embarassed to be receiving COLA’s for the past couple of years when the economy has been in the toilet and many private-sector friends have been losing jobs. Obama announced today that he’s pursuing a federal freeze on salaries; one one hand I’m not excited about the prospect, but OTOH I’m surprised it took this long to happen. Fed pays 20% more than private for comparable occupations? Interesting. They admit that they didn’t examine experience/education, but those seem like hugely important factors, especially when the article notes that federal workers keep their jobs for 20 years versus private workers keeping their jobs for only five years. Total compensation growing far faster for feds than for the private sector? Again, look for outsourcing that moves the _average_ without moving any individual worker’s compensation package. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/15 "2010-11-29T19:06:32Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Salaries growing 33% faster than inflation since 2000? The _average_ may be growing like that, but no doubt this is because of increased outsourcing over the past decade. Watch [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JObTDctaZOc&feature=related) (about 8’00" in) for an amusing illustration of this principle. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/16 "2010-11-29T19:13:17Z")
> [@Ring](#): > > Wow, that was fast, and has certainly tamped down my outrage to some extent, but, nonetheless, assuming the following is true, it still seems like something is out of whack here. So, what you’re saying is 2/3 of what this guy says is clearly bogus, and so bogus that he’s either really idiotic or deliberately trying to deceive you, but you really think the other 1/3 is going to be reliable? Well, given this guy’s track record, I’m not going to spend my time digging up rebuttals, but I’ll note that in addition to the other comments here, there’s another possible contributor to rising federal wages: If they include the military, then I understand there’s this concept of ‘combat pay’, which raises salaries significantly. Of course I’m willing to bet that just about any civilian job which includes ‘in active combat zones’ as part of the job description pays a heck of a lot better than soldiers get. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/17 "2010-11-29T19:17:59Z")
If the right wing is complaining that nobody needs government-funded health insurance because private corporations do a bang-up job of providing health insurance to its employees, then they shouldn’t go touting how much more the government spends on insuring its employees. It’s not the government’s fault that the private sector’s health insurance benefits are so much lower than the benefits it gives. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/18 "2010-11-29T19:25:54Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > …I’ll note that in addition to the other comments here, there’s another possible contributor to rising federal wages: If they include the military, then I understand there’s this concept of ‘combat pay’, which raises salaries significantly. _cough_ Post 8 _cough_ ---
**Author:** ![BetsQ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@BetsQ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BetsQ)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/19 "2010-11-29T19:31:17Z")
I’d like to add that a lot of the federal workforce is in the DC area. The cost of living here is comparable to other large cities, but much higher than a lot of the rest of the US. That will also serve to keep federal salaries above the national average. ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/20 "2010-11-29T19:47:20Z")
Well, I’m overwhelmed. I’ve been a plant / general manager for two very large corporations, and I’ve always had access to complete nationwide wage and salary information for all professional and managerial positions. Surely, this type of information must be available for a study that compares apples to apples for federal and private employees? Such a study would put this kind of thing to rest. Why isn’t this info available? Also, in thinking about this I remember _The Economist_ pointed to federal pay as ripe for deficit reduction, and it had a graph showing a significant growing gap in federal vs. private pay. > [@](#): > > 1. Hourly workers in the private sector don’t receive pension or other benefits at all,….. Not true. Every Plant I’ve ever been associated with had the same benefits for both hourly and salaried professionals. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299.md?page=2)