# A Federal pay outrage? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 29, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299 "2010-11-29T17:37:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/21 "2010-11-29T19:48:46Z")
> [@Goofus](#): > > [http://faq.bea.gov/cgi-bin/bea.cfg/php/enduser/std\_adp.php?p\_faqid=320&p\_created=1156971364&p\_sid=j-kzFggk&p\_accessibility=0&p\_redirect=&p\_lva=553&p\_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTEsMTEmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXRzPTQxLDEwNSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PTIuMTA1JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE\*&p\_li=&p\_topview=1](http://faq.bea.gov/cgi-bin/bea.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=320&p_created=1156971364&p_sid=j-kzFggk&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=553&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTEsMTEmcF9wcm9kcz0mcF9jYXRzPTQxLDEwNSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PTIuMTA1JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1) To be perfectly blunt, speaking as someone who was laid off a year ago… The idiots have jobs, they can deal with an income that isn’t raising every damn year. Those on unemployment get limited benefits, generally don’t have any health care, and have no bright future of knowing they have a job to actually go to. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/22 "2010-11-29T19:58:58Z")
> [@Ring](#): > > Surely, this type of information must be available for a study that compares apples to apples for federal and private employees? Such a study would put this kind of thing to rest. Why isn’t this info available? That information is available. Apples-to-apples studies pretty much always show that Federal employees earn less than their counterparts, but have better benefits and more job security. > [@](#): > > Not true. Every Plant I’ve ever been associated with had the same benefits for both hourly and salaried professionals. Fair enough. I’ll rephrase: _most_ hourly workers don’t get benefits, or at least reduced benefits. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/23 "2010-11-29T20:27:27Z")
This article was brought to you by the same thinking that still believes that women get paid less than men for the same job. And that’s a favorite meme of the left, showing that misuse of averages is not specific to any particular ideology. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/24 "2010-11-29T20:32:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fair enough. I’ll rephrase: _most_ hourly workers don’t get benefits, or at least reduced benefits. Those that have union protections typically do, as well as some other workers for large companies that have avoided unionization. This is part of why American businesses don’t like unions, because they add costs that might otherwise be avoided. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/25 "2010-11-29T20:48:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Apples-to-apples studies pretty much always show that Federal employees earn less than their counterparts, but have better benefits and more job security. Yes. I work for the government and my salary is very unimpressive considering where I live and what I do, but I will probably never be laid off and my benefits are better than anybody I know in private industry. It’s a trade-off. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/26 "2010-11-29T20:53:38Z")
The obvious solution to this, if it is such an outrage, is to get a federal job. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/27 "2010-11-29T20:55:18Z")
Regarding the unions and union rules that supposedly prevent federal employees from being fired, a vast swath of federal workers (see “[excepted service](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excepted_service)”) are not allowed to join to labor unions because of the nature of their employement. Namely, everyone who works here: > [@](#): > > Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts > Corporation for National and Community Service > Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) > Department of Transportation (DOT) > Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) > Federal Air Marshal Service (FAMS) > Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) > Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) > United States Department of Justice (DOJ) > United States Secret Service - Uniformed Division (USSS) > Federal Reserve Board > Government Accountability Office (GAO) > Military Sealift Command (MSC) > National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA) > National Security Agency (NSA) > National Science Foundation (NSF) > Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) > Office of the Solicitor (SOL) > Peace Corps > Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA) > United States Postal Service (USPS) > Federal Reserve System, Board of Governors > Foreign Commercial Service (DoC) > United States Agency for International Development (USAID) > Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) > United States Department of State > United States Election Assistance Commission > U.S. Supreme Court, Personnel Office > National Maritime Intelligence Center > US Department of Homeland Security (DHS) - Transportation Security Administration (TSA) > Department of Defense Education Activity (DODEA) > Naval Acquisition Career Center or Naval Acquisition Intern Program - NACC Interns also called NAIP interns > National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) ---
**Author:** ![Ring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Ring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ring)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/28 "2010-11-29T20:55:25Z")
I found all kinds of sites that say the feds make too much, but I know nothing about any of them, so I won’t post their urls. But then I found the following that seemed fairly legit and says the exact opposite. Feds don’t make too much > **[Federal Eye – Federal salaries fall behind private sector, panel says](https://jeffpruett.wordpress.com/2010/11/01/federal-eye-federal-salaries-fall-behind-private-sector-panel-says/)** > > Official numbers released by the government late last week show salaries of federal workers falling slightly farther behind their private-sector counterparts in the last year, by an average of 2.1 … > [@](#): > > The new numbers reported by the government are likely to keep the bitter, election-year debate over federal salaries on the front burner well after Tuesday’s midterm elections. Last year’s numbers put federal pay an average of 22 percent behind the private sector, a conclusion disputed by conservative think tanks and Republican candidates……………. > > The government’s numbers also show that higher-paid, more senior employees tend to fall behind their counterparts at private companies, whereas lower-paid employees in government come out ahead. I couldn’t find The Economist’s article. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/29 "2010-11-29T21:00:37Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > Yes. I work for the government and my salary is very unimpressive considering where I live and what I do, but I will probably never be laid off and my benefits are better than anybody I know in private industry. It’s a trade-off. My Bro worked for the Feds/IRS for 20 years, as the equiv of a CPA. His pay was $60K, after 20 years. A CPA around here gets about 90K. Compared benes: Holidays- about the same, some companies had one more day, other had one day less. Vacation: About the same during the first years, went up a lot after only 3 years for the Feds, but then they don’t go up again until 15 years. OK. Retirement- under the FERS system, there is a matching 4% for 5% employee contibutions- many co’s out here do flat 5% matching. But there’s also a small traditional pension, so the Feds have the edge here. Health- more choices by far, but each choice (Kaiser) cost more than most big companies. No Dental. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/30 "2010-11-29T21:09:20Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > Regarding the unions and union rules that supposedly prevent federal employees from being fired, a vast swath of federal workers (see “[excepted service](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excepted_service)”) are not allowed to join to labor unions because of the nature of their employement. > > Namely, everyone who works here: Really? No employees of the USPS? That will be a surprise to the folks here: [http://www.apwu.org/index2.htm](http://www.apwu.org/index2.htm) Is that a one-time error? Should I check out any others? Hmmm… > [@](#): > > Department of Veterans Affairs [Uh oh:](http://www.afge.org/Index.cfm?Page=AFGEFacts) > [@](#): > > The union is headquartered in Washington, D.C., and is divided into 12 geographical Districts consisting of some 1,100 Locals. More than one-half of AFGE’s members are consolidated into agency-wide bargaining units. Agencies with the highest concentration of union membership include the Department of Defense, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Social Security Administration and the Department of Justice. Would you like to try again? Or maybe just read your own link? Your link has nothing to do with unions; it’s a list of the excepted service positions. ---
**Author:** ![Surly\_Chick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Surly\_Chick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Surly_Chick)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/31 "2010-11-29T23:31:03Z")
I work for the federal government in a moderately well-paying job. I took a **$30K** paycut to join and am paying quite a bit more for health insurance than I did when I was in the private sector - without dental which I had in my previous job. Yes, there is a pension but it’s not very much and by the time I can collect it, I probably won’t have many more years left in me to do so. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/32 "2010-11-29T23:47:28Z")
I used to work for a local municipality and the benefits were sweet. If I managed to make it 30 years, I’d have a pension that would pay me 75% of my highest three years’ salary (averaged), plus greatly subsidized health care for both me and my spouse. I left it because I couldn’t see myself dealing with the public for the next 27 years. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/33 "2010-11-30T03:38:34Z")
The usual summary of the differences between federal workers and private-sector workers is as follows: On the average federal workers make a little less. The lowest level of federal workers actually make a little more than the comparable private-sector employees. This advantage disappears as you move up the levels of an agency or company. The head of a federal agency will make three or four times what he made (adjusted for inflation) when he was hired, assuming he came right out of college or grad school. The president of a private company will make at least ten or twenty times what he made when he was hired. This is why it’s somewhat common for federal workers to resign when they make middle-management to take a comparable job in private industry. The vacation and medical benefits tend to be better for federal workers. Federal workers have more job security. Remember that nearly all the time when people lose their jobs, it’s because of their employers getting rid of jobs in some division, not because of firing people for cause. It’s rare for federal jobs to disappear, but it’s extremely common for companies to let many employees go or even to go bankrupt and let everyone go. ---
**Author:** ![cuauhtemoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecb155/32.png) [@cuauhtemoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cuauhtemoc)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/34 "2010-11-30T14:07:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > …Vacation: About the same during the first years, went up a lot after only 3 years for the Feds, but then they don’t go up again until 15 years. OK… In my job, we start out with 13 days, and it goes up to 19 after three years. And that’s totally separate from sick leave and holidays. I hear about a lot of companies giving like 28 days a year, but that includes sick time, holidays, and every other weekday you’re someplace other than work. So I was always under the impression that government leave benefits were better. And leave is an important one for me. ---
**Author:** ![elninost0rm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ed655f/32.png) [@elninost0rm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elninost0rm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/35 "2010-11-30T14:18:53Z")
> [@cuauhtemoc](#): > > In my job, we start out with 13 days, and it goes up to 19 after three years. And that’s totally separate from sick leave and holidays. I hear about a lot of companies giving like 28 days a year, but that includes sick time, holidays, and every other weekday you’re someplace other than work. So I was always under the impression that government leave benefits were better. And leave is an important one for me. After 15 years in the PA state gov’t (different from federal, I know), you’re looking at ~29 days a year. This is annual/personal. This doesn’t include sick and holiday. I know my father (works for SSA) averages about the same. He has worked 38 years, but I’m sure he hit the top tier a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/36 "2010-11-30T18:11:49Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > To be perfectly blunt, speaking as someone who was laid off a year ago… > > The idiots have jobs, they can deal with an income that isn’t raising every damn year. Those on unemployment get limited benefits, generally don’t have any health care, and have no bright future of knowing they have a job to actually go to. To be blunt back, **Aru** , are you more pissed off a mid-level government worker making less than their counterpart in private industry, or at a Goldman-Sachs banker making millions basically because of a taxpayer bail-out? If the answer is the first, can I ask why? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/37 "2010-11-30T18:27:38Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > To be blunt back, **Aru** , are you more pissed off a mid-level government worker making less than their counterpart in private industry, or at a Goldman-Sachs banker making millions basically because of a taxpayer bail-out? If the answer is the first, can I ask why? That last bit is naive. If you think the bailout is why Goldman-Sachs employees make millions, you need to read a book on derivatives and rampant futures speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/38 "2010-11-30T22:30:44Z")
As someone who work in the private sector for one small company for seven years and the last 15 in the federal government doing the same sort of work on different machinery, the feds are a far better deal as far as money and bennys. I don’t have the exact data available but my pay went up by about $15,000, they match the first 5% of the TSP versus no match from the private company for 401K (which was always strapped for cash), I got them to credit my eight years military service by paying back 3% of my total military pay. More vacation and my company in it’s last two years started to mandate when people took vacations: one week in June, one week in August. Automatic pay raises for the first 10 years plus COLA Not to mention that I had to survive the 11 layoffs in seven years that electronics companies seem to have as it is a fast changing field. I don’t worry about that in my present job (for now). The downside? I truly miss the people in the company. Really a great bunch of people. A Band of Brothers (and Sisters) trying to make it. Federal workers aren’t so bad but in my old job I looked forward to going to work. So, yeah, the premise that government workers make more than private is correct IMO. But IMO government workers aren’t overpaid. It’s the private workers that are underpaid. ---
**Author:** ![Shecky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/85e7bf/32.png) [@Shecky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shecky)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/39 "2010-12-01T14:33:39Z")
On a benefits note, the private company I worked at’s blue cross/blue shield health plan is about $100 a paycheck, $5 drugs and $10 doctor copay. On top of it, they still cover infertility and lasik. And I was paid a significant amount more. The fed’s package is $185 or so a paycheck, no lasik or infertility, $35 doctor copay and a 20% of whatever the drugs cost. Kind of miss my private industry days. I only look forward to retirement. Or a non-supervisory 14. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299/40 "2010-12-01T14:50:35Z")
It depends. In my grad school, graduate finding jobs with the government average 50k right out of school, and in the private sector it is more like 65k. End-of-career salaries with the government will be around 100k and with private will probably range from 80k-200k. Private is by far the better deal, with a better chance of making lots of money and vastly more interesting work.I think the people who go for federal jobs do it because it has a lot more stability and better work for people with families. These are skilled people, usually with multiple advanced degrees, doing difficult work in dangerous and uncomfortable situations. It’s not the sort of job you can hire from the bottom basement for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-federal-pay-outrage/562299.md?page=3)