# A Few Good Men - Plot hole I've missed until today
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [August 31, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771 "2011-08-31T18:02:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/21 "2011-09-01T14:15:30Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#):
>
> Why do you hate them so much?
Hate who?
---
### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/22 "2011-09-01T14:18:26Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#):
>
> This.
>
> Also, I’ve never been entirely convinced that Jessup was in the wrong to order the Code Red. Well, obviously he was _legally_, but his reasoning as to why Code Reds are a good thing, overall, always struck me as correct.
It was total bullshit, actually, as was his entire “you want me on that wall,” speech. he was full of shit. He was a blow hard. He wasn’t protecting anybody from anything. He provided no freedom. Cuba is not going to take over the United States. We don’t even need that wall, much less anybody on it. Jessup was a grandiose nobody patting himself on the back for protecting us from a fabricated threat. I’ll eat breakfast on that wall every day of the week. I’ll do it naked.
I saw that entire speech as emblematic of the kind manipulative rhetoric and aggrandizing bullshit we always hear from and about the military. Jessup was purely an egotist talking shit. When you really think about what his words, he was saying nothing genuine.
Blanket parties do not “save lives.” Don’t believe every line of bullshit you hear coming from an asshole with a bird on his shoulder.
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### Author:  [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/23 "2011-09-01T14:20:06Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> You thought that Jessup was right to order them to [del]torture[/del] discipline a marine for _collapsing from [del]a serious coronary issue[/del] heat exhaustion_?
But Santiago was healthy as a horse. Dr. Tufnel said so. He was just too lazy to run.
And the original Code Red order was to hold him down & shave his head. The rag in his mouth was just to stop him from shouting for help.
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### Author:  [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/24 "2011-09-01T14:22:05Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> Hate who?
They beat up on a weakling; that’s all they did. The rest is just smokefilled coffee-house crap. They tortured and tormented a weaker kid. They didn’t like him. So, they killed him. And why?! Because he couldn’t run very fast!
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/25 "2011-09-01T14:23:52Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#):
>
> They beat up on a weakling; that’s all they did. The rest is just smokefilled coffee-house crap. They tortured and tormented a weaker kid. They didn’t like him. So, they killed him. And why?! Because he couldn’t run very fast!
Sorry I missed your setup. ☹
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### Author:  [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/26 "2011-09-01T14:25:17Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> Sorry I missed your setup. ☹
You’re a lousy fucking softball player, Jack!
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### Author:  [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/27 "2011-09-01T14:31:10Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> Hate who?
“They”, who stand on a wall and say " nothing’s going to hurt you tonight; not on my watch".:rolleyes: Please tell me this isn’t a good example of Mr. Sorkin’s much celebrated dialogue.
By the way, I love this film; just hated this line.
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/28 "2011-09-01T14:33:38Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#):
>
> But Santiago was healthy as a horse. Dr. Tufnel said so. He was just too lazy to run.
It was that very doctor who said that Santiago was collapsing because of heat exhaustion. So my point stands.
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### Author:  [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/29 "2011-09-01T14:42:54Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#):
>
> But Santiago was healthy as a horse. Dr. Tufnel said so.
It’s like, how much more healthy could he be? And the answer is _none_.
None … more healthy.
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### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/30 "2011-09-01T14:52:20Z")
> [@Bytegeist](#):
>
> It’s like, how much more healthy could he be? And the answer is _none_.
>
> None … more healthy.
But he only ran 10 miles. The other guys in his outfit went to 11.
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### Author:  [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/31 "2011-09-01T14:53:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> It was total bullshit, actually, as was his entire “you want me on that wall,” speech. he was full of shit. He was a blow hard. He wasn’t protecting anybody from anything. He provided no freedom. Cuba is not going to take over the United States. We don’t even need that wall, much less anybody on it. Jessup was a grandiose nobody patting himself on the back for protecting us from a fabricated threat. I’ll eat breakfast on that wall every day of the week. I’ll do it naked.
With 4000 Cubans staring at you? (btw, why would the Cuban Army be trained to assassinate Jessup. Sounds like a strange point to make)
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> I saw that entire speech as emblematic of the kind manipulative rhetoric and aggrandizing bullshit we always hear from and about the military. Jessup was purely an egotist talking shit. When you really think about what his words, he was saying nothing genuine.
Yes, but I cant figure if the movie is trying to show him as you saw it, or actually agrees with his speech but consider him as abusing the powers that came with his responsibility.
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Blanket parties do not “save lives.” Don’t believe every line of bullshit you hear coming from an asshole with a bird on his shoulder.
You should have told me that before I joined Captain Barbossa’s crew.
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### Author:  [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/32 "2011-09-01T15:44:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> It was total bullshit …
>
> I saw that entire speech as emblematic of the kind manipulative rhetoric and aggrandizing bullshit we always hear from and about the military. Jessup was purely an egotist talking shit. When you really think about what his words, he was saying nothing genuine.
>
> Blanket parties do not “save lives.” Don’t believe every line of bullshit you hear coming from an asshole with a bird on his shoulder.
> [@MOIDALIZE](#):
>
> They beat up on a weakling; that’s all they did. The rest is just smokefilled coffee-house crap. They tortured and tormented a weaker kid. They didn’t like him. So, they killed him. And why?! Because he couldn’t run very fast!
Fuckin’ A. If a guy can’t run fast enough, you give him a job in which he doesn’t have to run that fast. You don’t beat the shit out of him.
The biggest fucking coward was Martinson, who killed himself rather than tell the truth and prevent an innocent man from being punished for a crime he didn’t commit.
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### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/33 "2011-09-01T16:36:57Z")
> [@Pitchmeister](#):
>
> Yes, that’s the point. He could have not answered the question, but Caffey asks because he believes Jessup wants to answer it - he’s proud of the way he runs his unit.
Jessup also seemed surprised (?) that he was going to be charged with a crime. I guess he thought a Colonel would be given the latitude to do whatever he believed he needed to do keep his unit at top preparedness.
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### Author:  [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/34 "2011-09-01T16:45:36Z")
The are discussion boards ovee on IMDB. I read through those for this movie. Interesting stuff.
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### Author:  [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/35 "2011-09-01T17:50:49Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#):
>
> You thought that Jessup was right to order them to [del]torture[/del] discipline a marine for _collapsing from [del]a serious coronary issue[/del] heat exhaustion_?
Except he doesn’t get the code red for not keeping up - **he gets it for breaking the chain of command.** I am not going to get into whether or not tying someone up and shaving their head is torture.
If he had an issue, there is a chain of command and a grievance process, he went outside of it to the NIS and that’s why he gets the code red, for not following that protocol. The whole not keeping up is just the reason the other guys were ostracizing him.
As for putting Downey on the stand, military law is different, the whole rule against self-incriminating is a civilian rule, not a military one?
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/36 "2011-09-01T18:00:42Z")
> [@Poysyn](#):
>
> Except he doesn’t get the code red for not keeping up - **he gets it for breaking the chain of command.** I am not going to get into whether or not tying someone up and shaving their head is torture.
>
> If he had an issue, there is a chain of command and a grievance process, he went outside of it to the NIS and that’s why he gets the code red, for not following that protocol.
Code Red itself is a violation of protocol. You’re arguing that protocol had to be broken in order to preserve it. There’s something wrong with that logic somewhere.
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### Author:  [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/37 "2011-09-01T18:26:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> Code Red itself is a violation of protocol. You’re arguing that protocol had to be broken in order to preserve it. There’s something wrong with that logic somewhere.
But there’s official protocol and unwritten protocol. After all, Pvt. Dr. Carter was able to get those three squares a day at the mess hall.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/38 "2011-09-01T18:32:05Z")
There’s no unwritten protocol. That’s a contradiction in terms.
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### Author:  [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/39 "2011-09-01T18:43:10Z")
> [@Poysyn](#):
>
> Except he doesn’t get the code red for not keeping up - **he gets it for breaking the chain of command.**
He gets it for _both_.
> [@Jessup](#):
>
> He’s written letters to everybody but Santa Claus asking for a transfer. And now he’s telling tales about a fenceline shooting. This kid broke the chain of command and ratted on a member of his unit to say nothing of the fact that he is a US marine and it would appear he can’t run from here to there without collapsing from heat exhaustion. What the fuck is going on in Bravo Company, Matthew?
>
> …
>
> Maybe, and I’m just spitballing here, but maybe we have a responsibility as officers to train Santiago. Maybe we as officers have a responsibility to this country to see to it that the men and women charged with its security are trained professionals. Yes, I’m certain that I read that somewhere once. And now I’m thinking, Colonel Martinson, that your suggestion of transferring Santiago, while expeditious and certainly painless, might not be, in a manner of speaking, the American way. Santiago stays where he is. We’re gonna train the lad. John, you’re in charge. If Santiago doesn’t make 4646 on his next proficiency and conduct report then I’m going to blame you, then I’m going to kill you.
> [@Poysyn](#):
>
> I am not going to get into whether or not tying someone up and shaving their head is torture.
And gagging them them with a rag shoved in their mouth. But you’re right, that doesn’t seem like much of a torture considering the consequences of doing that to Willie were unintended. But let’s not pretend that Code Reds always skirt the line so cleanly: Dawson describes scrubbing marines with scrub brushes, brillo pads and steel wool.
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#):
>
> There’s no unwritten protocol. That’s a contradiction in terms.
No need to be pedantic. Clearly among the culture of marines as presented in the movie there exists a set of unwritten rules that are as, if in some cases not more important than the official ones.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [September 1, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-good-men-plot-hole-ive-missed-until-today/594771/40 "2011-09-01T19:11:15Z")
I’m saying that this unwritten code is hypocritical. Jessup doesn’t get to cite preservation of protocol as an excusing for breaking it.
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