I just thought it was rather telling when you said that any marine would know that naval doctors are incompetent. i find all the inter-service sniping, whether serious or in jest, to be somewhat annoying.
I was thinking about this movie the other day, and it seems like you could nitpick a lot of the evidentiary details. The doctor says that there are poisons that could have caused Santiago’s death and leave no trace, but no one asks if Dawson and Downey would have had access to anything like that at Guantanamo. As for removing a departing flight from the tower logs, that would still leave a record of a plane that arrived at Gitmo but never left. They should find that plane and check its logbook.
But the movie isn’t about that level of Holmesian deduction; it’s about the showdown between Kaffee and Jessup.
A trial lawyer never asks a witness a question he doesn’t already know the answer to. Plus, I don’t think it’s anyone’s case that D & D intentionally poisoned S or that someone else is responsible for the death. Why go down that path?
Thanks dj6ta. Your input has been very interesting. I think most writers care about being authentic so I wonder how it can be that screenwriters often make such mistakes.
Perhaps the doctor’s not the one to ask about that, but he does testify that Santiago was poisoned. The prosecution’s case is that Santiago reported an illegal fence-line shooting outside the normal chain of command, that he would give the name of the shooter in exchange for a transfer away from Guantanamo, and that Dawson (with Downey’s help) killed Santiago because he didn’t want to be identified as the shooter. That establishes motive, but it’s a little weak on method and opportunity. From the time Dawson found out what Santiago was doing, would he have had access to the mysterious, untraceable poison put on the rag in Santiago’s mouth?
For that matter, the actions of Jessup and Kendrick don’t make much sense, either. Why would they order the platoon not to retaliate against Santiago, and 20 minutes later tell D & D to give him a code red? Why would it matter if Santiago was to be on the first flight off the base, or the second? Why even cook up the phony transfer order at all? Jessup gets caught out by the contradiction in his cover-up, but no cover-up was really needed. They could have just said “no code red was ordered, and Dawson and Downey acted on their own”, and left it at that.
I share your disdain for inter-service banter and insults, but I was not generalizing the Navy as a whole. It’s actually fairly simple to understand why Naval doctors stay where they are. They can never be sued for malpractice, job security, and they know they can get away just telling Marines to “tough it out”. As far as the annoying part, I agree fully. I generally look at the other services as more of an extended family then a rival. We as Marines couldn’t do our jobs without the navy, and the Airforce has saved me and my guys on several occasions. The bottom line is that we are all willing to fight for our country.
You are very welcome! As far as the screenwriters doing what they do, I’m sure the innacuracies I mentioned were just added for dramatic effect.
As far as the saluting in doors thing goes, it is not a part of our (Navy/Marine Corps) customs and courtesies to salute indoors except for very special conditions. Why? No clue, that’s just the rule I guess.
Another thing that always gets me about the movie is when Tom Cruise uses the word “latreen”. The Navy and Marines call the bathroom the “head” and the army calls it a latreen. Don’t know what the Air Force says, but from seeing their enlisted quarters in comparison to ours I would say they probably call their bathroom a “palace”.
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen the movie so I can’t recall it in full. But yes, the doctor’s testimony does seem to be bit out of place. I’m not sure why it was included in the movie. I guess I’d have to re-watch it to know.
There are a hell of a lot of people criticizing the movie, which is great, because it means they watched it and liked it enough to care. eg (my favorite):
“When Kaffee is reading the inventory of Santiago’s belongings during the trial, he refers to “three khaki shirts.” Earlier in the film, when in Santiago’s room, there are five khaki shirts hanging on the rod.”
This person fucking loved the movie. As did I.
I like Sorkin because he writes stories where honesty and truth are the greatest virtues.
In the Navy, at least, it can involve a little bit more than a “chewing out” session, all at the discretion of the CO.
A CO can “dock” your pay (the proceeds going to the unit’s Morale, Welfare, & Recreation (MWR) fund, typically).
They can order “Restriction” (i.e. no liberty) to the base, ship, or barracks.
They can also order some x number of hours of “extra military duty” (which, in what little I have seen, typically involves light manual labor stuff, like painting, litter detail, etc.).
I don’t think they still do “Bread & Water” stuff any more.
Most of what you said is correct. I simply didn’t want to outline the UCMJ in its entirety when I wrote my post. Reduction in rank is E5 and below, not E6 (at least in the Marines). The bread and water thing can only be done during a time of war (actual war, not a police action) while on ship. As far as the brig thing goes, you have to be convicted of a crime to go to the brig, and an NJP is not a conviction of any type (Non Judicial Punishment.)
All that aside, I heard a rumor while I was in and I’d like to see if anyone knows if it’s true or not. The rumor goes like this: if you are a male and are the sole survivor of a ship that goes down, you are permitted to wear a diamond, tear drop earring while in uniform. I don’t think there has ever been a sole survivor to a ship like this, but I want to know if the regulation actually exist.
I apologise if I was unclear. I served a short stint “TAD” in the ship’s Master-at-Arms division. (8 months. My actual MOS was in the electronics field.)
I have seen, and stood watch over, (two) shipmates confined (Very short durations. No more than 48 hours each…) in the ship’s brig. I don’t recall what they were confined for.
For some reason, at the time, I assumed that they were the result of Captain’s Mast cases. Now that I reflect back, those conclusions may have been in error.
This is a slight hijack but I don’t think my question deserves a whole new thread.
I haven’t seen the movie in a while but my recollection is as per the wiki article on AFGM and seems to gell with what people are saying above. There is an aspect I don’t get or I must be misunderstanding.
My understanding is that Dawson and Downey are given a Code Red order by Jessup to haze Santiago: in other words to maltreat him in a relatively minor way. IIRC their intention is to tie him up, gag him and shave his head. Certainly there is nothing (in terms of how the whole thing winds up) to suggest Dawson, Downey and Jessup were stone cold killers who planned on executing Santiago outright.
So what’s the story with the poison on the rag stuffed in Santiago’s mouth? Was it there by accident or what?
Santiago died from acidosis. The base doctor testifies that even though no trace of poison was found in Santiago or on the rag, such acidosis would not happen in a healthy person and that an undetectable poison must have have been used. Kaffee suggests that Santiago had a heart ailment which caused the acidosis, and that the base doctor’s conclusion of poison was to cover his own ass for not detecting the ailment.
It’s a minor point that they don’t get into too deeply.
Actually the story with the (non) poison and acidosis came back to me after reading Robot Arm’s post.
Funny thing: it’s probably a US/Australian accent thing but the way they pronounce “acidosis” in the film is with an emphasis on the second syllable and a very slight pause in the middle so it comes out sounding (to my ear) like “acid doses”. I think the Australian pronounciation would be “acidOSis”. I spend part of the film wondering what the hell “acid doses” was.
Eh, I’m sure that was some weird thing they did on the ship for one reason or another. We had one guy who got NJP’d and then threatened to kill himself over the ordeal so while the unit was waiting for a room to open up in the mental illness ward of the Naval Hospital they put him in a brig room for a day. Your situation could have been similar in nature.
It didn’t cue you in when they said “lactic” acidosis? The doctor does briefly describe the actions of the body producing lactic acid during cellular respiration when there is t enough oxygen.
