# A few question for Omnivores . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367 "2002-04-24T15:45:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/101 "2002-04-25T06:15:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > \*\*How about this: do you think at all that society should be more vigialant in its tolerance of factory farming, due to the fact that there may the slight possibility of being able to compare the treatment of the animals in today’s slaughterhouses to the atrocities of both the Nazi and Japanese in their so called “medical research” on Jewish and Korean people? \*\* aaaaaaaaand TIME! 13 hours 15 minutes. Not bad. Not bad at all. Now if you’ll please exit to the right, Godwin has some lovely parting gifts for you on your way out. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/102 "2002-04-25T06:15:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > No need to apologize. All in the name of debate. I started the thread in hope of starting a good discussion. Most of the posts called my personal beliefs into question, and I defended them. That’s it. You mean it hasn’t been good for you? It’s been okay for _me_. “Okay” in the sense of entertaining, mind you, not enlightening. > [@](#): > > I’m not out to change anyone’s mind. I just want people to know the facts before they start calling me cruel for wanting to adopt a cat and feed it vegetarian food. I’ve seen a few plausible facts cited that show a meatless diet would be bad for a cat, and no facts (plausible or otherwise) to counter that claim. What thread have _you_ been reading? > [@](#): > > Just don’t assume that I’m wrong merely because I’m outnumbered. That’s another one-trick-pony stunt. Somehow, lack of acceptance for a claim constitutes evidence or plausibility for that claim. I’m not assuming you’re wrong simply becuase most if not all the posters in this thread disagree with you. I realized you were wrong through other means. Your lack of a cogent argument didn’t help. > [@](#): > > How about this: do you think at all that society should be more vigialant in its tolerance of factory farming, due to the fact that there may the slight possibility of being able to compare the treatment of the animals in today’s slaughterhouses to the atrocities of both the Nazi and Japanese in their so called “medical research” on Jewish and Korean people? What’s that law that goes “he who invokes NAZIs first loses?” ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/103 "2002-04-25T06:16:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > **You said “Like maybe animals and humans, and therefore our morality doesn’t necessarily apply the same way?” That’s interesting. Keep going with it. Give me a cite. Just don’t assume that I’m wrong merely because I’m outnumbered.** Give you a cite on morality? Okay, I cite me. My morality says that eating animals is okay. Or give you a cite on humans and animals being different? I’ll cite any biology text ever written. \*\* > [@](#): > > How about this: do you think at all that society should be more vigialant in its tolerance of factory farming, due to the fact that there may the slight possibility of being able to compare the treatment of the animals in today’s slaughterhouses to the atrocities of both the Nazi and Japanese in their so called “medical research” on Jewish and Korean people? \*\* I invoke Godwin’s Law. The thread is closed, and I’m outta here. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/104 "2002-04-25T06:17:30Z")
Ah, Godwin. thanks, **Ender**. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/105 "2002-04-25T06:18:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > \*\*How about this: do you think at all that society should be more vigialant in its tolerance of factory farming, due to the fact that there may the slight possibility of being able to compare the treatment of the animals in today’s slaughterhouses to the atrocities of both the Nazi and Japanese in their so called “medical research” on Jewish and Korean people? \*\* Soooo…cows, chickens and pigs are the moral equivalent of humans? ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/106 "2002-04-25T06:19:30Z")
That’ll teach me to hit Preview so many times before I hit Submit. Well played, Ender. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/107 "2002-04-25T06:21:37Z")
Yeah…what **stankow** said… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/108 "2002-04-25T06:22:09Z")
Don’t sweat it, stankow. The boards are unpredictably and intermittently slow so calling a Godwin is as much luck as skill. I tried to be first myself, but I couldn’t remember the damn name. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/109 "2002-04-25T06:25:05Z")
I’m soooooo studly. Who wants to touch me? Watch out though, I have a bit of meat on me. ---
**Author:** ![the\_great\_dalmuti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b2d939/32.png) [@the\_great\_dalmuti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_great_dalmuti)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/110 "2002-04-25T06:26:16Z")
Enderw24- 1 - it all comes down to the writer’s intention. Which I can’t prove. So I guess you got me. Surely you can see that someone’s being intentionally rude when by saying “Just for that, I’m going to go to my freezer right now and microwave up a nice chicken cordon bleu. You know why I like that so much? Because two different animals had to die, and another one had to be exploited. And I’m doing it just because you pissed me off.” 1. I eat organic produce whenever I can. And no, I’m not perfect. Obviously. But, I am conscious of the prolems associated with meat consumption, and doing my best to help out all I can. Can’t really ask someone to do more than give their best, can you? 2. See question 2. Yes, once in a great while I kill one of the behemoth-sized spiders I occasinally find lurking in my bedroom. But, again, covering up your lack of knowldge about a subject by pointing out that I am not the perfect model is weak. It’s a flaw, sure that I do not adhere perfectly to the same system I prescribe. But, thats precisesly one of the biggest and more feasible criticisms of most of the great philsophers, througout history. So you can’t really just disregard my ideas because of #3. 3. Prove to me that I would be harming a cat by not feeding it meat. If you could prove it to me, then I would definitely reconsider. Granted Cecil has done a column on it, but we all know he’s not the most progressive and liberal of thinkers. 4. Are free range animals raised specifically for their owner’s consumption bad? 5. Please see my above post when I comment on hunting. Hunting for fun? Yes. Hunting for consumption, I’d rather not advocate it. But hunting over factory farms, yes, undoubtedly, I would choose the former. 6. If I learned that plants sensed pain, I definitely be a less happy person. There heave been studies, and there are a group of scientists out there who claim that broccoli can sense fear. (No cite, sorry.) But, in that situation, I would have to to utilitarian and opt for the option which produces less cruelty, and less environmental pollutants: namely, a plant-based diet. 7. There would actually be no need for this. There is more than enough grain to feed a vegetarian nation. Here’s a quote from Dr. M. E. Ensminger, former chairman of the Separtment of Animal Science at Wash. State University, form an article in the magazine Animal Science “There can be no question that more hunger van be alleviated with a given quantity of grain by completely eliminating factory farm animals . . .It’s not efficient to feed grain to animals and then onsume the livestock products.” Here’s another quote, from Dr. Walden Bello, wh ois an Executive Director of the Institute for Food and Developmental Policy, a leading expert in the field of global food realities: “Every time you eat a hamburger you are having a relationship with thousands of people you never met. Not just people at the supermarket or fast food restaurant but possibly the World Bank officials in DC, and peasants from Central and South America. And many of these people are hungry. The fact is that there’s enough food in the world for everyone. But tragically, much of the world’s food and land resources are tied up in producing beef and other livestock - food for the well-off - while millions of children and adults suffer from malnutrition and starvation.” ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/111 "2002-04-25T06:31:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > **1 - it all comes down to the writer’s intention. Which I can’t prove. So I guess you got me. Surely you can see that someone’s being intentionally rude when by saying "Just for that, I’m going to go to my freezer right now and microwave up a nice chicken cordon bleu. You know why I like that so much? Because two different animals had to die, and another one had to be exploited. And I’m doing it just because you pissed me off."** That was me, and it was good. And that’s exactly why I did it. Dalmuti, you irritated me so much that I chose a course of action designed strictly to irritate you back. Does that tell you anything about how irritating you’re being in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![the\_great\_dalmuti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b2d939/32.png) [@the\_great\_dalmuti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_great_dalmuti)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/112 "2002-04-25T06:33:17Z")
Sorry. What’s the Godwin’s law thingo? I guess I can assume what it is, but can you tell me where it comes from? sorry, I really had no idea the stir that post would create. Just wanted to toss the idea out there. Sorry to be the one that kicked the can, so to speak. I haven’t been around here long enough, I’m still "learning the lingo, if you will. I’m not so much concerned about the my theoretical cat. I was much more concerned that people were claming that my feeding a cat with a vegetarian diet was the moral/ethical equilivant (or even worse than) the preactices employed in today’s slaughterhouses. That’s it. It has been fun, in a sense, and I appreciate you all sharing your veiwpoints with me. I feel a little more “in tune” with the non-vegan mindset. And knowing, as we all know, is half the battle. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/113 "2002-04-25T06:35:35Z")
\*\*What goes through your mind as you’re eating meat, and/or other animal products? \*\* Muah-hah-hah, stupid animal! You are dead and I am alive and eating your flesh! I win! \*\*Also, how do you justify the fact that a living, breathing animal was killed for the sole reason of satisfying your hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet? \*\* Plants don’t feel pain so they aren’t as fun to eat! \*\*In your mind, are animals simply detached from your basic day-to-day ethics and morals? Do you feel guilty? Do you feel as if there are no other alternatives? \*\* Ethics? Morals? Guilt? What are these things you speak of? ---
**Author:** ![stankow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@stankow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stankow)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/114 "2002-04-25T06:37:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > **Sorry. What’s the Godwin’s law thingo? I guess I can assume what it is, but can you tell me where it comes from?** It comes from the old Usenet days. Godwin (whose actual name and position I don’t recall) postulated that as the number of posts in any given discussion grows, the possibility of someone comparing someone else to Hitler or Nazis approaches one. That part’s logical. The really revolutionary part of Godwin’s Law is that once this comparison is made, the person who made it is automatically presumed to have lost the argument, and the argument is over. Why? Because comparing anyone to Hitler or the Nazis is so obvious a rhetorical trick that doing it means you’ve run out of actual facts or even persuasive opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/115 "2002-04-25T06:40:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > \*\*But, again, covering up your lack of knowldge about a subject by pointing out that I am not the perfect model is weak. \*\* I take offense at this. You don’t know me and you don’t know what my range of knowledge is in this subject. You don’t even know whether I’m a vegetarian or not. Whether I support you or not! So why do you assume I have no knowledge in this area? Perhaps because it’s easier to continue this debate when you assume everyone is against you and everyone is dumber than you? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/116 "2002-04-25T06:40:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > \*\*Cecil has done a column on it, but we all know he’s not the most progressive and liberal of thinkers. \*\* Whoa, quit while you’re behind, tgd. Dissing Cecil is like going… like… well, it’s probably a pretty bad thing to do. And if you won’t accept any of the given evidence that putting a cat on a meatless diet is bad, why should we try to provide more? It doesn’t seem like it will have any effect, despite your claims to the contrary. As for killing spiders, don’t you know that spider-killing was a hobby greatly prized by soul-less bloodthirsty NAZIs? ---
**Author:** ![the\_great\_dalmuti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b2d939/32.png) [@the\_great\_dalmuti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_great_dalmuti)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/117 "2002-04-25T06:44:52Z")
I was sincerely trying to raise a question. But, hey, rules are rules, and I’ll turn down my king. I don’t know exactly what I lost, but I’m not so worried about it. In my Intro to Ethics class, first year of college, my textbook was riddles with examples invoking “baby Hitler.” I didn’t know it as a faux-pas. Last question. I assume that most of you, if asked, would scoff at the ideas, if someone asked you to try out a vegan diet for a week, or a day. Why, exactly, would you not try. If I was approched and asked to to eat meat for a week, I obviosuly wouldn’t. Because I would ger really physically sick (it’s been 7 years) and it just wouldn’t fly with my own personal ethics. Now, if someone asked you to go vegan for a week, it wouldn’t necessarily be comprimising your principles, would it? It would just be a slight change, and not necessarily a question of ethics or morals. Right? Or am I way off? So, that being said, why don’t you try it? What’s holding you back? Obviously, your desire. But, would it have any ethical implications for you? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/118 "2002-04-25T06:49:00Z")
What if we just don’t feel like it? Does that make us immoral? ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/119 "2002-04-25T06:50:16Z")
If we aren’t supposed to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2002, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367/120 "2002-04-25T06:51:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by the\_great\_dalmuti \* > \*\*Not trying to start a fight, I’m just genuinely curious. > > What goes through your mind as you’re eating meat, and/or other animal products? \*\* I don’t think all that much while I’m eating. I’m aware that there’s a joke somewhere in that statement. Whether I’m eating an apple or a steak I tend to think how good/bad it is, the table conversation, or whatever I’m watching on TV. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Also, how do you justify the fact that a living, breathing animal was killed for the sole reason of satisfying your hunger, which could obviously be satisfied by a plant-based diet? \*\* I need to eat something and I have absolutely no problem eating something that was a living breathing animal. > [@](#): > > \*\* > In your mind, are animals simply detached from your basic day-to-day ethics and morals? Do you feel guilty? Do you feel as if there are no other alternatives? > Again, just curious. Thanks. \*\* I don’t feel guilty for eating animals as I consider it a nature part of human life. I don’t even feel guilty about killing animals myself. I recognize that there are alternatives I just don’t consider it a moral imperative to exploit those alternatives. Marc [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-question-for-omnivores/105367.md?page=7)