# A few questions about the Christian heaven **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643 "2015-10-24T17:26:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/141 "2015-10-27T21:31:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but your definition of “Christian” is absolute garbage. [It has absolutely nothing to do with believing that the entire Bible is totally factual and must be followed to the letter.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/christian) According to this(and just about every other) dictionary, you’ve just got to be a follower of this character called Jesus Christ. Indeed. According to Martin Luther, “The Bible is the cradle wherein Christ is laid.” The Bible is not God itself, but merely brings God (Jesus) to others and must be read through the lens of Christ. Hence, appealing to the Bible and none else misses the entire point. After all, the Word, which was in the beginning according to John, is NOT Scripture, but Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/142 "2015-10-27T21:32:03Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Your basic point is pretty narrow minded it seems to me. Just as your understanding of communism is, I’m afraid. You can’t just define words for other people and think everyone is going to go along with you because, I dunno… your force of constantly repeating yourself. I mean, really. Yes, I can. I may pick imperfect analogies. I may use the wrong word(s). But you yourself have demonstrated the ambiguity and contradiction in even one simple passage of the bible. If you are going to go down that route then the whole book(s) become meaningless, beyond the point of a a bunch of mythology and accounts of long passed battles and conquests. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/143 "2015-10-27T21:35:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > No, we are not like Jacob wrestling with angels. We are much smarter than that. Mere arrogance. > [@](#): > > If he wanted to correct the ambiguity and contradiction of the bible, he could easily do so. It is, IMO, our fault for reading it so damn literally. I would argue that the ambiguity and contradiction speaks to the human nature of Scripture. The authors wrote it based on what they felt God was telling them and the Church continued to affirm the truth of those Scriptures and what they showed about God and humanity. And it shows the continued growth and movement of God’s people, with all their faults and trials and tribulations. How they fucked up and how they atoned for those fuck ups. Why try to scrub that clean? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/144 "2015-10-27T21:36:39Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > Indeed. According to Martin Luther why should I care what he has to say? His opinion is equally valid or invalid as anyone elses’s. > [@](#): > > “The Bible is the cradle wherein Christ is laid.” The Bible is not God itself, but merely brings God (Jesus) to others and must be read through the lens of Christ. Hence, appealing to the Bible and none else misses the entire point. After all, the Word, which was in the beginning according to John, is NOT Scripture, but Christ. But which lens of christ do we use? Yours? Fred Phelps? Billy Gram? Joel OSteen? Johnathan Edwards? William Penn? Thomas Jefferson? Seriously, which lens are we supposed to use??? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/145 "2015-10-27T21:38:02Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I may pick imperfect analogies. I may use the wrong word(s). But you yourself have demonstrated the ambiguity and contradiction in even one simple passage of the bible. If you are going to go down that route then the whole book(s) become meaningless, beyond the point of a a bunch of mythology and accounts of long passed battles and conquests. I see you are completely unfamiliar with theology. It may be meaningless to you if it contains ambiguity and contradiction, but you aren’t really changing anyone’s mind on this who already considers it full of meaning and life. Especially when you insist that your reading is the only possible interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/146 "2015-10-27T21:39:19Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > why should I care what he has to say? His opinion is equally valid or invalid as anyone elses’s. Indeed. Though Luther has some pull, for obvious reasons. > [@](#): > > But which lens of christ do we use? Yours? Fred Phelps? Billy Gram? Joel OSteen? Johnathan Edwards? William Penn? Thomas Jefferson? > > Seriously, which lens are we supposed to use??? Our own, through our community. We work through it and try to figure out the best we can. We’ll fail, obviously. Constantly. But we continue our work, week after week, day after day. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/147 "2015-10-27T21:40:27Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > It is, IMO, our fault for reading it so damn literally. I would argue that the ambiguity and contradiction speaks to the human nature of Scripture. **The authors wrote it based on what they felt God was telling them** and the Church continued to affirm the truth of those Scriptures and what they showed about God and humanity. And it shows the continued growth and movement of God’s people, with all their faults and trials and tribulations. How they fucked up and how they atoned for those fuck ups. Why try to scrub that clean? (bolding mine) The authors wrote it based on what they felt God was telling them So… then the bible is really just a collection of writings about what those authors felt about god… it is not God telling humanity what the truth actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/148 "2015-10-27T21:40:48Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But which lens of christ do we use? Yours? Fred Phelps? Billy Gram? Joel OSteen? Johnathan Edwards? William Penn? Thomas Jefferson? According to almost every dictionary you can find, which of these can be defined as “Christian”? ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/149 "2015-10-27T21:49:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > (bolding mine) > > The authors wrote it based on what they felt God was telling them > > So… then the bible is really just a collection of writings about what those authors felt about god… it is not God telling humanity what the truth actually is. This may require some explanation on the Holy Spirit ;). Most mainline Protestants (probably most Catholics too, to be honest) believe that the authors of Scripture were merely humans who were inspired by God to write down what they saw and heard. The Spirit indeed brings truth. Articulating that truth can be difficult at times, or filtered through our own biases. The Holy Spirit also works through communities through history to continue to assert certain writings as sacred. And may be read even today, through the Holy Spirit, to asset some measure of God’s truth that was newly revealed to us in the reading. (so basically, when I mentioned narrow minded earlier, it is because the religious mindset is a bit different than simply reading a textbook to get the facts) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/150 "2015-10-27T21:54:10Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If it is the PERFECT WORD OF GOD then yes, there is only one way to interpret it. If it is a collection of essays and opinions, then, yes, there are lots of ways to interpret it… and none of them mean anything more than just that: an opinion (ie, not the word of god). Two problems. First, even if you’re right and there is only one correct way to interpret it, that is far from demonstrating that there is only way way to interpret it. Second, lots of real-world texts have subtleties, veiled meanings, metaphoric morals, and so on. There is more than one way to read The Great Gatsby. The same is true for the Bible: there are lots of valid ways to interpret it. You’re trying to force a false dilemma, and, ironically, you’re making the same blunder as Pascal’s Wager. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Some Christians are Christians without believing that the entire Bible is 100% fact-filled, and there is no Christian Governing Body that can kick them out of the club. Some interpret stories one way, and they are still Christians. Some interpret stories another way, and they are still Christians. Although it’s not my thing, I do understand that it’s more of a “general direction” thing than a “regimented by the book army” thing. Sorry your “Logic” thing can’t compute that. Exactly so. Trying to claim that only hyper-literalists are “really” Christians is a seriously flawed kind of reasoning. > [@Robert163](#): > > . . . But which lens of christ do we use? Yours? Fred Phelps? Billy Gram? Joel OSteen? Johnathan Edwards? William Penn? Thomas Jefferson? . . . In other words, there are lots of ways the Bible can be interpreted, giving the fail to your contention that “There can be only one.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/151 "2015-10-27T21:54:30Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If their belief is not supported by the bible then it is irrelevant. It would merely be an opinion. Once more with the fundy view of religion and scripture? You really need to take a college level course on the anthropology of religion and get past those beliefs promoted by the most extreme (and least educated) Fundamentalists. Given the number of times that this has been pointed out to you in multiple threads, (by posters other than me), it is amazing that you hang onto this belief without providing a single shred of evidence to indicate why you insist on this error. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/152 "2015-10-27T21:59:29Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > This may require some explanation on the Holy Spirit ;). Most mainline Protestants (probably most Catholics too, to be honest) believe that the authors of Scripture were merely humans who were inspired by God to write down what they saw and heard. The Spirit indeed brings truth. Articulating that truth can be difficult at times, or filtered through our own biases. > > The Holy Spirit also works through communities through history to continue to assert certain writings as sacred. And may be read even today, through the Holy Spirit, to asset some measure of God’s truth that was newly revealed to us in the reading. (so basically, when I mentioned narrow minded earlier, it is because the religious mindset is a bit different than simply reading a textbook to get the facts) If the Holy Spirit leads to so many contradictory and ambiguous positions, then, it is not worth anything as a guide. IF your GPS took you to a random, inaccurate, location 96% of the time that you used it, would you say it was an accurate guide? Reliable? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/153 "2015-10-27T22:03:36Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Two problems. First, even if you’re right and there is only one correct way to interpret it, that is far from demonstrating that there is only way way to interpret it. > > Second, lots of real-world texts have subtleties, veiled meanings, metaphoric morals, and so on. There is more than one way to read The Great Gatsby. The same is true for the Bible: there are lots of valid ways to interpret it. > > You’re trying to force a false dilemma, and, ironically, you’re making the same blunder as Pascal’s Wager. > > Exactly so. Trying to claim that only hyper-literalists are “really” Christians is a seriously flawed kind of reasoning. > > In other words, there are lots of ways the Bible can be interpreted, giving the fail to your contention that “There can be only one.” Before I attempt to answer your questions would you mind telling me what your real actual point is? I mean, no offense but what is your agenda, apart from criticizing me and making the case that christians can have “multiple” interpretations of the bible? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/154 "2015-10-27T22:09:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Once more with the fundy view of religion and scripture? > > You really need to take a college level course on the anthropology of religion and get past those beliefs promoted by the most extreme (and least educated) Fundamentalists. > [@](#): > > Given the number of times that this has been pointed out to you in multiple threads, (by posters other than me), it is amazing that you hang onto this belief without providing a single shred of evidence to indicate why you insist on this error. I realize, of course, that there are many people who claim to believe other things than the literal text. But, as it has been pointed out many times in this thread, and elsewhere, given the vast amounts of contradictions and ambiguities in the Bible, given all of that disagreement, the only logical place to start, and end, is with the actual words themself. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/155 "2015-10-27T22:49:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If the Holy Spirit leads to so many contradictory and ambiguous positions, then, it is not worth anything as a guide. > > IF your GPS took you to a random, inaccurate, location 96% of the time that you used it, would you say it was an accurate guide? Reliable? The Spirit is not a GPS. It doesn’t dictate for us our path, and we are free to listen or ignore. And, of course, going back - depends on how we interpret what its telling us. Though I may ask about the common phrase “May your conscious be your guide”. If peoples’ conscious leads to many contradictory and ambiguous positions (sometimes in the same person), is it worth anything as a guide? And why follow it then? I’m not making a one-for-one comparison, mind. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/156 "2015-10-27T23:02:49Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > The Spirit is not a GPS. It doesn’t dictate for us our path, and we are free to listen or ignore. And, of course, going back - depends on how we interpret what its telling us. What? Seriously, what? A guide that is not an accurate guide… that is what the Holy Spirit is? > [@](#): > > Though I may ask about the common phrase “May your conscious be your guide”. If peoples’ conscious leads to many contradictory and ambiguous positions (sometimes in the same person), is it worth anything as a guide? And why follow it then? I’m not making a one-for-one comparison, mind. I do believe in a conscience. I believe people ignore it by choice. Well, 99% of the population, those with normal brain chemistry. But the conscience, at best, can only declare what a handfull of things are that are “definitely” wrong. Rape, murder, theft, etc. If your boss is withholding your paycheck and you steal a case of Jack Daniels (you work in a bar) and you sell it at half price to a bunch of fraternity boys… that gets a little complicated. Killing your boss over a missed paycheck… pretty simple. But the Holy Spirit is not one flawed individuals moral compass. It is supposed to be god. God is perfect. The Holy Spirit would allways tell you what to do, 100% clarity, and leave it up to you to choose to do the right thing or do the wrong thing. ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/157 "2015-10-27T23:45:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I am using this example as an analogy only. I am not claiming to have perfect understanding of Marx or communism. So if there is an error in my analogy look to the main point I am trying to get across. Heres an analogy: youre like a vegan complaining that the steak is underdone. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/158 "2015-10-28T01:09:51Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Either demonstrate how Divine Authority can have more than one accounting of the Truth > **[The Blind Men and the Elephant - 19th-century](https://www.thebicyclingguitarist.net/poetry/blind_men.htm)** > > 19th-century poem by John Godfrey Saxe based on older stories about how one can be fooled by one's senses. And so these men of Hindustan Disputed loud and long, Each in his own opinion Exceeding stiff and strong, Though **each was partly in the right** And all were in the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/159 "2015-10-28T01:25:07Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > [The Blind Men and the Elephant - 19th-century](http://www.thebicyclingguitarist.net/poetry/blind_men.htm) > > And so these men of Hindustan > Disputed loud and long, > Each in his own opinion > Exceeding stiff and strong, > Though **each was partly in the right** > And all were in the wrong. what exactly do you think this proves? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/160 "2015-10-28T01:32:02Z")
How six people can have seemingly different viewpoints, and all be right. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643.md?page=9)