# A few questions about the Christian heaven **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643 "2015-10-24T17:26:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/161 "2015-10-28T01:40:20Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Before I attempt to answer your questions would you mind telling me what your real actual point is? I mean, no offense but what is your agenda, apart from criticizing me and making the case that christians can have “multiple” interpretations of the bible? That Christians have multiple interpretations of the Bible is my entire point. You said that the Bible can only be interpreted in one way, and that’s incredibly wrong. My whole effort in this entire thread has been to lay out a very brief and superficial survey of the incredible diversity of Christian thought. Some people see heaven one way, and others see it very differently. Aquinas says one thing and Calvin says another, and Oral Roberts says something completely different. Even the principle that “The Bible is the only source of truth” is not accepted by all Christians. You tried to make out that it is definitional – you said it comes from the definition of religion – but that’s nonsense. The definition of religion has to go a long, long way beyond just the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/162 "2015-10-28T01:41:17Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > How six people can have seemingly different viewpoints, and all be right. > [@](#): > > Deuteronomy 21:18-21 > > “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear. How do you get 6 different, equally correct, equally incorrect version of Deuteronomy 21:18-21? It would seem to me only one correct version exists. Moses, would insist, there is only one. Who are you to say you know better than Moses what Moses said when he said it? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/163 "2015-10-28T01:44:18Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That Christians have multiple interpretations of the Bible is my entire point. You said that the Bible can only be interpreted in one way, and that’s incredibly wrong. > > My whole effort in this entire thread has been to lay out a very brief and superficial survey of the incredible diversity of Christian thought. Some people see heaven one way, and others see it very differently. Aquinas says one thing and Calvin says another, and Oral Roberts says something completely different. > > Even the principle that “The Bible is the only source of truth” is not accepted by all Christians. You tried to make out that it is definitional – you said it comes from the definition of religion – but that’s nonsense. The definition of religion has to go a long, long way beyond just the Bible. Yes, but which is the ---- correct — version? What Moses had to say about unruly children or what Tom, Dick, or Harry has to say about what Moses said? (My question was rhetorical). [SIZE=“1”]Deuteronomy 21:18-21 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.[/SIZE] ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/164 "2015-10-28T01:53:11Z")
Gotta love the way that atheists are more literal about the Bible than most Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/165 "2015-10-28T01:56:48Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Gotta love the way that atheists are more literal about the Bible than most Christians. Would it be possible to get your comments on Deuteronomy 21:18-21. Or are you just going to give us more poems and comments about Atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/166 "2015-10-28T02:02:55Z")
I’m not a biblical literalist ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/167 "2015-10-28T02:11:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I’m not a biblical literalist obviously what is your opinion of Deuteronomy 21:18-21 ??? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/168 "2015-10-28T02:16:01Z")
It’s an obscure passage that doesn’t interest me, Only atheists obsess over things like that. I doubt if most Christians have even heard of it. I doubt you’ll find any that believe in it. And it has nothing to do with the concept of Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/169 "2015-10-28T02:25:30Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > And it has nothing to do with the concept of Heaven. Not if it is the same god who who wants you to stone people to death for being drunk and unruly. Some people, most decent people, would call that a bad example of character, and not want to spend eternity worshiping such a deity. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/170 "2015-10-28T02:38:42Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Would it be possible to get your comments on Deuteronomy 21:18-21. . . . Sure. It’s an archaic commandment, which Christians and Jews ignore today. What’s your opinion of Romans 15:21? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/171 "2015-10-28T02:43:13Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Not if it is the same god who who wants you to stone people to death for being drunk and unruly. Some people, most decent people, would call that a bad example of character, and not want to spend eternity worshiping such a deity. But only atheists take the passage literally. I doubt you’ll find any Christians who do so. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/172 "2015-10-28T02:45:43Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Gotta love the way that atheists are more literal about the Bible than most Christians. Fundamentalist biblical literalism is a phenomenon of modernity, as of course is “new atheism”. So they have more in common than either of them would probably care to admit. And one thing they have in common is an instinctive assumption that strict literalism is the “correct” way to read any text, or that any text with any claim to importance must be written in a literalist genre rather than any other genre. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/173 "2015-10-28T02:47:07Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > But only atheists take the passage literally. I doubt you’ll find any Christians who do so. Yes but lots of christians take the concept of hell literally. Stoning unruly people to death… condemning unbelievers to eternal torture… both are examples of a brutal sadistic god. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/174 "2015-10-28T02:50:08Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Fundamentalist biblical literalism is a phenomenon of modernity Can you provide a cite for this? I find it hard to believe that a pioneer on the plains of Oklahoma in the 1840’s, with a 3rd grade education, is going to think that the story of the Garden of Eden, or Noah’s Ark, or Christ walking on water or Christ being resurrected from the dead… that they would view any of these stories in any other capacity than “literal”. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/175 "2015-10-28T02:56:23Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Can you provide a cite for this? Your posts in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/176 "2015-10-28T03:02:16Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Your posts in this thread. Are your responses allwasy this inconsistent? ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/177 "2015-10-28T03:09:28Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Can you provide a cite for this? > > I find it hard to believe that a pioneer on the plains of Oklahoma in the 1840’s, with a 3rd grade education, is going to think that the story of the Garden of Eden, or Noah’s Ark, or Christ walking on water or Christ being resurrected from the dead… that they would view any of these stories in any other capacity than “literal”. The 1840s are very much in the modern era, Robert. A lot of believers took the stories as factual _in the absence of any better evidence_, but were happy to acknowledge better evidence. For example, at first glance the world appears to be flat, and there are biblical texts which treat is a flat, and readers probably took this to be accurate. But once investigation showed that the world is round, that view was accepted, and we have no record of any significant number of Christian believers refusing to accept that view on the basis that it was contradicted by the bible. Augustine, in fact, points out the stupidity of such a stance. It’s only in the modern era (by which I mean from the sixteenth century onwards) that we have conflicts of this kind, and I suggest that’s because believers start to ead biblical texts with a literalist mindset than they didn’t have in the past. We should note that Ussher’s famous calculation, fixing the creation of the world in 4004 BC, dates from this period. he arrived at this date by applying modern techniques of scholarship and textual interpretation to ancient texts. Much before this time, nobody seems to have thought that this would be a particularly useful or interesting exercise, partly because they didn’t _have_modern techniques of scholarship and textual interpretation. As it happens, unbelievers also read biblical texts with a literalist mindset than they didn’t have in the past; the person who says that the world must have been created in seven days because Genesis says so, and the person who says that Genesis must be dismissed because it says that the world was created in seven days are both employing the same literalist reading of Genesis. They both assume that if it can’t be read as dispassionate journalism, it can’t have any value. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/178 "2015-10-28T03:10:00Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > What? > > Seriously, what? > > A guide that is not an accurate guide… that is what the Holy Spirit is? You are trying to put the Holy Spirit in a GPS box. It’s more like a father trying to explain things to a 4 year old. The 4 year old really has no idea why the father is telling him things and sometimes really doesn’t even get what is trying to be explained and, at many times, will ignore it as a result. > [@](#): > > But the Holy Spirit is not one flawed individuals moral compass. It is supposed to be god. God is perfect. The Holy Spirit would allways tell you what to do, 100% clarity, and leave it up to you to choose to do the right thing or do the wrong thing. But we are flawed and unable to fully comprehend everything. We can be gently guided, but sometimes we won’t listen to the small still voice. (though to be fully honest, I believe most of what we deem our ‘conscious’ is simply the Holy Spirit speaking). ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/179 "2015-10-28T03:18:18Z")
Or put it this way, Jesus’s parables can sometimes be very difficult to fully figure out. But the point is to try to figure out the deeper truths through wrestling with those stories and try to live by what Jesus taught. Jesus didn’t give a list of “do this” and neither would the Holy Spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643/180 "2015-10-28T03:29:31Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > It’s only in the modern era (by which I mean from the sixteenth century onwards) that we have conflicts of this kind… I was under the impression that Christianity, from 500AD to 1500AD would be something that most of us would not recognize. For the most part the bible would be more or less the same, for the people that knew how to read, but common ideas of Salvation, Charity, Purity, The Trinity, Tithing, The Devil, Sin, etc, pretty much anything that could have a “philosophical as well as religious” explanation would be very different from what we have in 2015 or had in 1985. I could be wrong. That is the impression I have. But not from study of the history of religion, as details as a side issue I picked up in my interest in Celtic History and the history of the Vikings and the Anglo Saxons. So, I guess what I’m saying is, I don’t see much use at all comparing religion in 2015 or 1985 to religion in England or Germany in 1208 AD… I was under the impression they were so different as to be similar in name only… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-christian-heaven/735643.md?page=10)