# A few questions about the gym **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246 "2017-03-02T23:43:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/21 "2017-03-03T20:30:37Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > As another example - take leg extensions. Now, some “authorities” say that they are a waste of time, but I can tell you that my quads are much more cut after doing them. That’s a machine that has no direct analog with free weights. Surely squats, lunges, calf raises, etc. would be analogous to the leg extension machine? As far as socializing, there are a group of us at the gym who mainly take the classes. We’re friends on Facebook and we chat and have lunches. We’re even doing a 5K together. But during class…nope, all business. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/22 "2017-03-03T20:46:33Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If you’re not trying to get stronger, just run or use a treadmill or take a spin class or boot camp or play kickball or something. If you just want to burn some calories, you can do that by getting off the couch and having some fun. No need to risk injury on a worthless chair with levers and pulleys. IMO, this isn’t an argument that can be supported. There are many ways to gain strength, and it certainly can be done using machines in a gym. It’s not the only way, and it may not be the quickest way, but for many people it’s a perfectly acceptable way. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/23 "2017-03-03T20:49:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or do whatever the hell you like doing and just stick to it. If you like machines better than free weights, it will be easier to stick to the regimen long enough to benefit. Consistently doing a machine circuit is way better than doing a free weight routine inconsistently. > > Regards, > Shodan Well, despite the (relatively low) risk of overuse injuries, machines do burn calories, so if you like using them, have fun. I’d prefer to play a game of basketball myself, but whatever gets you sweaty and out of breath. I’m not trying to make anybody feel bad about their choice of exercise here, just trying to maybe educate people about the [differences between exercise and training](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-rippetoe/exercising-training_b_4597039.html). The issue is that most people think machines are useful for training, when they are, at best, just an exercise. If you actually want to train for strength, however (and you _should_, male or female, young or old, for many reasons), take my advice and use a barbell. Machines might make you sweaty, but they do not make you stronger. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/24 "2017-03-03T20:51:52Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > IMO, this isn’t an argument that can be supported. There are many ways to gain strength, and it certainly can be done using machines in a gym. It’s not the only way, and it may not be the quickest way, but for many people it’s a perfectly acceptable way. It improves strength in untrained individuals for about six weeks. So does roller skating, or yoga, or any other activity besides sitting or laying down. It will not get you any stronger than the couch to 5k program does, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Lowdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Lowdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lowdown)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/25 "2017-03-03T21:29:44Z")
1. People who do weights, rather than people who go on the machines… If you know what you’re doing and you want to gain muscle mass, you use mostly free weights for compound exercises (squats, deadlift, bench press, etc.) Machines isolate muscles, and have their uses, but some are not so good…like, don’t squat with a smith machine. Yes, free weights are better, if you know how to use them with proper form. Keep in mind that the vast majority of people at the gym don’t know what they’re doing. This goes triply so for this time of year, where 80% of the people just joined because of the new year and you’ll never see them again after a March or so. 2. People who pound the machines really quickly Keep in mind that the vast majority of people at the gym don’t know what they’re doing. 3. Expensive gym attire There are people that go to the gym to be seen. There are people who, as with any hobby/activity, are much more interested in the Stuff than the actual hobby/activity. Keep in mind that the vast majority of people at the gym don’t know what they’re doing. 4. Punchbags Try it for a few minutes. It is no joke. 5. The guy from the other day He’s trying to do intervals/high intensity training, but not very well. Keep in mind that the vast majority of people at the gym don’t know what they’re doing. Interval training has been shown to burn fat better than the typical endurance style cardio. 6. The ladies on the leg-press machine They want nice butts and legs, and the leg press machine is way less intimidating than a squat bar. 7. People who socialise at the gym Yeah, it’s not my style either, but I understand different people are wired differently. I don’t want to talk to anyone at the gym unless they’re asking me for a spot. I’m there to do a job, not fuck around. You forgot #8… 1. People who wear ENTIRELY TOO MUCH COLOGNE/PERFUME at the gym. This is the number one reason I stopped going to the gym. I gave up, spent the money and put one in my basement. Some of the best money I ever spent. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/26 "2017-03-03T21:32:53Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It will not get you any stronger than the couch to 5k program does, for example. Interesting hypothesis, but I’m not seeing the data to back that up at this point. The link you posted above seems unobjectionable, but it reads more like an opinion piece. Are there studies that show no improvements beyond 6 weeks with machines? And I think you need to define your terms. Are you saying that it’s impossible to make gains using machines beyond 6 weeks? Because I’m pretty sure that’s not supported by evidence I’ve seen with my own eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/27 "2017-03-03T21:37:29Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or do whatever the hell you like doing and just stick to it. If you like machines better than free weights, it will be easier to stick to the regimen long enough to benefit. Consistently doing a machine circuit is way better than doing a free weight routine inconsistently. > > Regards, > Shodan I want to highlight this. Sometimes, when you see people doing something weird at the gym, it’s simply because they’re _bored_ with their regular routine. You don’t eat the same dinner every night for years and years, do you? The guy on the treadmill was most likely doing interval training, but it’s also possible it’s just _more fun_ that way. Same for the guy on the punching bag. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/28 "2017-03-03T21:37:54Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > Surely squats, lunges, calf raises, etc. would be analogous to the leg extension machine? Squats and lunges work the Quads, yes, but for pure Quad isolation, nothing beats the leg extension machine. But, don’t take my word for it, ask Mr. Quads himself, Tom Platz: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/1_QV-L_jZDI/hqdefault.jpg "tom platz legs extension training") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_QV-L_jZDI) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/29 "2017-03-03T22:13:21Z")
Big fan of free weights myself but **DrCube** the evidence is simply overwhelming that machines can increase strength as well and to a similar degree. I refer you to the [American College of Sports Medicine assessment](http://www.sportsnutritionworkshop.com/files/52.spnt.pdf) (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > Free Weights and Machines > > Weight machines have been regarded as safer to use, easy to learn, and allow performance of some exercises that may be difficult with free weights, for example, knee extension. Machines help stabilize the body and limit movement about specific joints involved in synergistic force production, and machine exercises have demonstrated less neural activation when matched for intensity for most comparisons to free-weight exercises.[178] Unlike machines, free weights may result in a pattern of intra- and intermuscular coordination that mimics the movement requirements of a specific task. **Both free weights and machines are effective for increasing strength.** Research shows that free-weight training leads to greater improvements in free-weight tests and machine training results in greater performance on machine tests.[30] **When a neutral testing device is used, strength improvement from free weights and machines appears similar**.[274] The choice to incorporate free weights or machines should be based on level of training status and familiarity with specific exercise movements **as well as the primary training objective**. There are lots of reasons to prefer free weights to machines including the practical that most of what we are wanting to do with our strength in the rest of the world is more similar to free weight actions than to isolated machine-based movements. But your complete dismissiveness of machine-based progressive resistance training has no factual support. That last bolded part is pertinent to your post. Make the huge assumption that an individual wants to do more than exercise and has training goals. What is the individual’s training objective? If the goal is to max out his or her the combined powerlifting total then machines are a poor choice sure. But you may be shocked to learn that such is not everyone’s training objective even in regards to strength. And not everybody needs to be training even if increasing strength and lean body mass is one of their exercise goals. As even Rippetoe notes: " It may be that Exercise is all you really need". ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/30 "2017-03-03T22:21:50Z")
I haven’t been to the gym in decades but when I used to go pretty much daily I would have said: 1. Expensive gym attire - wear what you’re comfortable in. But I did find close-fitting shorts (not spandex, but cotton stretchy) more comfortable when rowing and stairclimbing because they didn’t have extra fabric to bunch up. But I still would have worn a t-shirt over them. [ETA that sounds bad, of course I wore a shirt. What I meant was, I didn’t have some sort of matching shorts and top in spandex like the OP’s reference.] 2. The ladies on the leg-press machine - I liked this because I felt powerful because I could lift what seemed like a lot for me – 200 lbs? I also liked the inner and outer thigh machine (it had the LED display like you said to tell you how fast to move the machine). ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/31 "2017-03-03T22:31:40Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Interesting hypothesis, but I’m not seeing the data to back that up at this point. The link you posted above seems unobjectionable, but it reads more like an opinion piece. Are there studies that show no improvements beyond 6 weeks with machines? That’s going to be tough, because the entire field of exercise science is filled with people who’ve never gotten strong, never coached anyone who got strong, and generally are much less knowledgeable about how to train humans than anyone who has actually done it themselves. Researchers publish papers every day studying untrained college kids (because that’s who they have available to study), without even realizing the simple fact any experienced lifter or coach will know, that any activity at all will improve strength in untrained individuals for about six weeks. That’s like a physicist trying to figure out which item is heavier by dropping them from a tower and seeing which lands first. It succinctly illustrates the severe ignorance the so-called scientist has about their own subject. What we are looking for is what will allow people to continue their strength training _beyond_ those first few weeks. And you simply can’t study that in a three week trial with 25 teenagers. But for over a century strong men have been building this knowledge through experience in gyms across the country. Look at Norbert Schemansky. Look at Bill Starr. Barbells work. And we know how. > [@Telemark](#): > > And I think you need to define your terms. Are you saying that it’s impossible to make gains using machines beyond 6 weeks? Because I’m pretty sure that’s not supported by evidence I’ve seen with my own eyes. Sure. Strength is the ability to produce force against an external resistance. The amount of force you can produce is the level of strength you possess. Think about it: When you’re new, you can increase the weight in the machine by 10-20 lbs each workout. Once you’ve been training awhile, and you need to increase the weight by only 5 lbs, but the plates in the machine are in 10 lb increments, what do you do? You don’t improve, that’s what. And that particular muscle the machine exercises doesn’t get stronger. That’s not even getting into the reasons isolation exercises aren’t very effective. Isolation exercises are what bodybuilders do to accentuate the curve in their bicep or thigh. It’s for the “pump”. But they didn’t get strong using them, they got strong squatting, deadlifting and pressing a barbell. The isolation exercises are just the finishing touches before showtime. If machines actually have an effective use case, this is it, though most pro bodybuilders will use dumbells or another kind of free weight for the same purpose. I encourage you to take a look at the guys who do Starting Strength. The name sounds like yet another crossfit or bowflex “get jacked quick” scheme, but as far as I can tell, they’re the only ones actually creating a robust and systematic knowledge base with doctors, scientists and coaches who have recognized the same shortcomings in exercise science I’ve tried to explain here. They explain complicated things from simple fundamentals, and you can read their articles yourself and see if it makes sense. No controlled study necessary (though well-informed studies do exist and more would be quite welcome). > **[Articles | Starting Strength](https://startingstrength.com/article/science-medicine)** > > The Starting Strength article library provides content by Mark Rippetoe, Starting Strength Coaches, invited strength coaches, and lifters. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/32 "2017-03-03T22:38:49Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > That last bolded part is pertinent to your post. Make the huge assumption that an individual wants to do more than exercise and has training goals. What is the individual’s training objective? If the goal is to max out his or her the combined powerlifting total then machines are a poor choice sure. But you may be shocked to learn that such is not everyone’s training objective even in regards to strength. > > And not everybody needs to be training even if increasing strength and lean body mass is one of their exercise goals. As even Rippetoe notes: " It may be that Exercise is all you really need". I mentioned in previous posts that if you want to get hot and sweaty, machines will accomplish that. But why? If you’re not trying to get stronger, why use the machines at all? A pickup game of sports or a jog in the park is vastly more enjoyable for that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/33 "2017-03-03T23:28:09Z")
Again, machines can work to allow one to be able to produce greater force in the specific movement against greater resistance. And if someone does them consistently, in a progressive manner (progressive can be any combination of increasing weight or reps), then strength at that specific activity will increase. Muscle mass will increase. No question in my mind that compound exercises result in strength that has more practical applications to both activities of daily living and to sports, and is more efficient, but that is a far cry from saying that machines done in a progressive manner do not increase strength more than a jog does. Some people do not like free weights for whatever reason, or do not have access to proper training, or the free weights are always being used and the machines are open. **Shodan** ’s point is well made: doing machines regularly and according to progressive principles will work better than doing free weights inconsistently or in a manner that risks injury. SS is a fine system but despite the claims of his worshippers and online stormtroopers Rippetoe is not God and his approach is not the Gospel. Olympic gymnasts are freakishly strong and do not even lift bro. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/34 "2017-03-03T23:55:21Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > **3. Expensive gym attire** > > At the gym, I wear a white T-shirt, tracksuit bottoms (Americans: I believe you call these ‘sweat-pants’?), They could be called sweatpants, but that usually means the ones made of cotton material that is very thick, warm, and heavy. If you mean the pants of lighter nylon or dacron-like material, that track athletes and swimmers sometimes put on after an event, those aren’t sweatpants. Track suit pants or track pants would probably do just as well in Americanese. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/35 "2017-03-04T00:05:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **1. People who do weights, rather than people who go on the machines…** > > As mentioned, free weights work the stabilizer muscles more, and allow a lifter to impose his or her own patterns of movement into an exercise, rather than being limited to the groove set down by the manufacturer. That having been said, do the exercises you enjoy, because you are more likely to stick to it. That is much more important than the difference between free weights and machines. In addition to what **Shodan** said: This means that, generally speaking, you’ll be able to “lift” far more weight on a machine than you can with free weight; the word ‘lift’ in quotes because it really isn’t equivalent to lifting that much in any other context. To illustrate by an example, I’ve usually found that I can handle only about two-thirds of the weight in dumbbells doing incline bench presses, than I can on the incline press machine. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/36 "2017-03-04T00:10:17Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > In addition to what **Shodan** said: > > This means that, generally speaking, you’ll be able to “lift” far more weight on a machine than you can with free weight; the word ‘lift’ in quotes because it really isn’t equivalent to lifting that much in any other context. To illustrate by an example, I’ve usually found that I can handle only about two-thirds of the weight in dumbbells doing incline bench presses, than I can on the incline press machine. ON the other hand, machines can be especially good for certain isolating movements that are impossible with free weights. For instance, squat-type movements can train the entire leg, but in order to develop the secondary muscles involved you need a lot of weight. If it’s more weight than you can handle when you’re starting out, machines can be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/37 "2017-03-04T02:10:36Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > Think about it: When you’re new, you can increase the weight in the machine by 10-20 lbs each workout. Once you’ve been training awhile, and you need to increase the weight by only 5 lbs, but the plates in the machine are in 10 lb increments, what do you do? You put on a half plate, or a quarter plate. I don’t know enough about your cites yet to speak knowledgeably about them, but this is a silly objection. All the machines I’ve seen have fractional weights you can add. And in general I think the whole idea that machines are somehow tangibly different from free weights doesn’t hold water but I’ll take a look. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/38 "2017-03-04T03:23:11Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It improves strength in untrained individuals for about six weeks. So does roller skating, or yoga, or any other activity besides sitting or laying down. It will not get you any stronger than the couch to 5k program does, for example. “Machines at the gym do not make you any stronger” “Here’s a cite showing a study over 6 weeks where it did just that” “Well…it makes you stronger only for 6 weeks then” 😃 It may be the case that free weights are superior, I implied as much upthread. But this kind of absolutist, almost religious, nonsense is trivial to debunk. For me for example, the only exercise I use that targets the lats is the lat pulldown machine. The amount of weight I can pull down has steadily increased and I have pretty good lats now. If pulling more weight is not an increase in strength, what is it? A hallucination? Also, how are you even defining machine? For example, is the smith bench press a machine? After all, you’re lifting a barbell which you seem to consider to be so important. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/39 "2017-03-04T13:56:25Z")
I think we can summarize all the excellent information in this thread to simply [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7gzmoqmL7g). ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2017, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246/40 "2017-03-04T18:32:27Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think we can summarize all the excellent information in this thread to simply [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7gzmoqmL7g). Whenever there is something heavy to move in the house, or groceries to carry in from the car, my wife says “You like to lift heavy things, you should thank me for this…” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-few-questions-about-the-gym/781246.md?page=3)