# A friend lies/cheats about something kinda small. Do you say anything? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Tags:** golf\ **Created:** [April 15, 2024, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326 "2024-04-15T17:16:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/1 "2024-04-15T17:16:14Z")
I golf 9 holes with the same group of 8-12 guys every Sunday. We play a $5 game - very low stakes, with a variety of different bets/payouts. I’ve been playing with some of these guys for 30 years. Yesterday I was playing with a guy who has been a semiregular for the past 5 years. I’ve played with him several times, and consider him a friend - tho we have never met up outside of golf. He miscounted his score on 2 different holes. (I can bore anyone who wants with specifics.) On each hole, his incorrect score was the difference between me winning 50 cents or not. So the money was immaterial. But you just don’t blatantly misstate your score. In such a situation, would you say anything? Does it affect your overall impression of the person? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/2 "2024-04-15T17:18:50Z")
It shows an overall lack of commitment to the truth. If it is not a big deal, then why lie about it? I would not trust them on other issues. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/3 "2024-04-15T17:21:32Z")
I wondered about that, but also wondered if someone could be “unreliable” regarding minor things, but dependable when it really matters. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/4 "2024-04-15T17:26:18Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > but dependable when it really matters. Dependable meaning what exactly? I know someone that commits time-card fraud and steals from a food bank making really good money but he was always the sort of guy who would have your back so dependable right? … except now he’s turning into (or just revealing) that he’s very petty if someone else gets what he wants by working harder. My believe is a dishonest character will eventually show no matter how much they try to hide it. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/5 "2024-04-15T17:40:29Z")
Are you sure the guy did it intentionally? If you are sure, I guess you should keep an eye on him when playing golf in the future and call him out if he does something funny. I wouldn’t bring the matter up after the event though. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/6 "2024-04-15T17:46:51Z")
It’s only a game. Just don’t loan him any money. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/7 "2024-04-15T17:57:31Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Are you sure the guy did it intentionally? It’s kinda a tricky thing. If playing a casual competition for low stakes, I don’t want to seem like I’m overly paying attention to the other guys’ scores. And sometimes folk miscount - especially if the strokes pile up on a bad hole. First hole, he drove next to a tree. I saw him pick up his ball and toss it, to be able to swing. When we met on the green, he said something like he “wasn’t going to injure himself or break a club.” I said, “Yeah. I should probably declare unplayable lies more often, and just take the penalty stroke.” So even if he didn’t know the rule, my statement shoulda communicated that there was a penalty stroke. After we holed out, he claimed a score that did not involve a penalty stroke. His score for that hole tied me, so we pushed the skin. Only 50 cents. But the prior 3 holes were also pushes, so it was worth $2. I eventually won all of the pushes on #7 - for a total of $3.50. In other situations with other friends, I would say, “Are you sure that was a 5?” And count what I remembered as 6 strokes. But I just felt that would be a tad dickish in our casual game. And I wasn’t playing all that well either, so I didn’t want to make it seem like I was being a rules enforcer just to win a couple of bucks. We generally play somewhat loosely with the rules. If someone loses a ball, we aren’t too careful about exactly where they drop their ball. It is fine for them to give themselves a decent next shot - so long as they are taking a penalty stroke. Hell, we let the oldest guys (in their 80s) tee off from the kids’ tees. Then on #8, he lost 2 balls. Drive wet, hitting 3 from the tee. 4th shot also wet. Hitting 5 to the green. I wasn’t paying too much attention to his strokes, but I KNOW he didn’t 1-putt, so his score was AT LEAST a 7. He said he had a 6. Same as me, so another push. But my 6 was a freaking double bogey, and I had just won 7 skins on the previous hole, so I didn’t want to seem like I was trying to win ALL the skins, or to rub it in when he had just lost 2 balls on 1 hole. These weren’t like really unusual interpretations of really technical rules. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/8 "2024-04-15T17:57:54Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It’s only a game. Just don’t loan him any money. Probably a good attitude. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/9 "2024-04-15T18:01:34Z")
I’m not a golfer, but I have to ask what may be a stupid question: Is it possible that he is adjusting his score for his handicap and assuming everyone else is doing the same? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/10 "2024-04-15T18:06:02Z")
Yeah, sounds like he was doing it intentionally, although maybe in his mind he was inside the rules, maybe informal rules he thinks are in place. Again, too late to say anything now. Maybe he was having a bad day, but I’d bet he’s done that before and no one noticed. Luckily I don’t play golf anymore. Don’t think I could now, but I would have kept at it if they made the stupid hole a lot bigger. I can drive, even if I have to turn a little to the right because of a hook, but I can’t get the ball into that stupid little hole in less than 5 strokes on the green. Maybe 4 if a really good drive lands me close to the hole. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/11 "2024-04-15T18:09:15Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Probably a good attitude. Sadly from experience. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/12 "2024-04-15T18:14:04Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I would have kept at it if they made the stupid hole a lot bigger. A while back I played in a league that had an annual “big hole” scramble tourney. They cut holes that were at least the size of a coffee can. Funny enough, as I recall we didn’t make a ton more putts than with the normal sized holes! 😃 > [@bibliophage](#): > > I’m not a golfer, but I have to ask what may be a stupid question: Is it possible that he is adjusting his score for his handicap and assuming everyone else is doing the same? That’s not how handicaps work, and in this group we play straight up - without hcps. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/13 "2024-04-15T18:16:19Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I wondered about that, but also wondered if someone could be “unreliable” regarding minor things, but dependable when it really matters. If someone doesn’t have the basic integrity to be honest about a game that doesn’t really matter in the scheme of things, why would you expect them to have integrity on really critical issues. And yes, I know that some people think that it is just fine to cheat at a game ‘just because’ they grew up in a household where the only sin for cheating at games was being caught, but then, where do you draw the line between ‘little’ and ‘big’ lies? I’d probably make a snide comment to let him know that I was aware of the cheating without making a direct accusation, and if he tried to dissemble or gaslight I’d respond by saying, “I know what I saw,” or if I particularly wanted to be cheeky, I’d quote Walter Sobchak: “Over the line! Mark it zero, Dude.” If I really wanted to drill the point, the next time I’d suggest that players track each other’s scores, or just refuse to play with him. But I know how crazy some golfers get about their game, and especially how cheaters are when they get caught deliberately violating the rules. I suppose you have to balance how much you want to keep the peace within the group with how pissed you are that one member (I’m assuming just the one) is cheating, and also how likely it is somebody else has noticed and wants to say something but is too restrained. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/14 "2024-04-15T18:21:53Z")
Before the next tee off - simply ask if ‘penalty strokes’ will be in play for this round or not. He may not have been playing by the ‘thats a penalty’ rule for a ‘friendly’ game. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/15 "2024-04-15T18:23:02Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I’d probably make a snide comment to let him know that I was aware of the cheating without making a direct accusation, and if he tried to dissemble or gaslight I’d respond by saying, “I know what I saw,” or if I particularly wanted to be cheeky, I’d quote Walter Sobchak: “Over the line! Mark it zero, Dude.” The thing is, I really like playing and talking with this guy. Our group takes about EVERYTHING as most of us walk the course. And I respect a ton of his values and how he lives his life. Just that day we had mentioned how we both think honesty is one of the most important things friends could offer each other. So I don’t think this makes him a “bad person.” Like **Chefguy** says, I won’t loan him $, but I want to still enjoy golfing with him. At this point, I think it is too late to say anything. It was a minor thing, and memories fade. If ti happens again, I thik I’ll try to remember to casually say something like, “Are you sure? I thought I had you for a 7?” Haven’t you ever played with someone who stole money from the bank in Monopoly? IMO, that might make them someone I don’t want to play monopoly with, but I don’t feel I need to hide the silverware when they come over. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/16 "2024-04-15T18:26:43Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Before the next tee off - simply ask if ‘penalty strokes’ will be in play for this round or not. He may not have been playing by the ‘thats a penalty’ rule for a ‘friendly’ game. Yeah - possible. But I think unlikely. I think on the 2d hole, he included 1, but not both of his penalty strokes. If someone dunks it in a pond or yanks it out of bounds, that’s always been a clear penalty stroke. Now maybe a greyer area - some folk improve their lies. I tend to play it as it lies, but not a big deal to me. So maybe he thought the moving it from the tree was akin to finding a nicer tuft of grass to hit off of… He’s an ex-marine. The ideas of dependability and honesty mean a lot to him. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/17 "2024-04-15T18:28:48Z")
Everything that you keep saying about the guy tells me that he has a slightly different understanding of the rules that you are playing under - you are assuming penalty where he is not. I have not yet heard anything that would imply that he is ‘cheating’ in the normal sense. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/18 "2024-04-15T18:31:35Z")
I have known people who have no qualms about telling “fibs” all the time. Lies just roll off their tongues; it’s natural for them, and it doesn’t bother them a bit. I have also learned (the hard way) to keep my distance from them. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/19 "2024-04-15T18:36:53Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > First hole, he drove next to a tree. I saw him pick up his ball and toss it, to be able to swing. When we met on the green, he said something like he “wasn’t going to injure himself or break a club.” I said, “Yeah. I should probably declare unplayable lies more often, and just take the penalty stroke.” > [@simster](#): > > He may not have been playing by the ‘thats a penalty’ rule for a ‘friendly’ game. What golfer doesn’t know a foot wedge counts as a stroke? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > If someone doesn’t have the basic integrity to be honest about a game that doesn’t really matter in the scheme of things, why would you expect them to have integrity on really critical issues. That is what I was trying to say but you said it better than I. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2024, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326/20 "2024-04-15T19:05:51Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > A while back I played in a league that had an annual “big hole” scramble tourney. They cut holes that were at least the size of a coffee can. Funny enough, as I recall we didn’t make a ton more putts than with the normal sized holes! 😃 I was thinking more like a manhole opening, or better about 4 feet wide. In a game of get the ball in the hole and most people can’t get in one over their entire lifetime something is wrong. Would anyone play basketball if the net was 50 ft. up in the air? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-friend-lies-cheats-about-something-kinda-small-do-you-say-anything/1000326.md?page=2)