# A fuck you to Denmark - the coming shame of Europe **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 27, 2004, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519 "2004-10-27T19:15:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![blinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@blinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinx)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/41 "2004-10-28T10:19:46Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > What’s true about it? If the health care is truly free, then there must be institutionalized slavery. Ofcouse it’s not completely free, it’s financed by taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/42 "2004-10-28T10:35:00Z")
Completely free? Something is either free or it isn’t: “not costing or charging anything” — Merriam-Webster. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/43 "2004-10-28T10:44:05Z")
And what rights would a Danish Christian have in Pakistan? ---
**Author:** ![blinx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@blinx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blinx)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/44 "2004-10-28T11:11:28Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Completely free? Something is either free or it isn’t: “not costing or charging anything” — Merriam-Webster. Allright then, it is not free to someone who is paying taxes, I think it’s safe to assume that a 88 year old sick woman will not get a job, so for her it would be free as in gratis. Ok? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/45 "2004-10-28T11:17:59Z")
Like I said, if indeed the healthcare is free, then slavery there is an institution. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/46 "2004-10-28T11:24:15Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Like I said, if indeed the healthcare is free, then slavery there is an institution. Are we not stretching the definition of slavery a bit? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/47 "2004-10-28T11:32:25Z")
**blinx:** \*[…] she’ll also be eligible for the benefits that is provided by our social security system, such as free medical care. Not that I would mind that a bit of my highly taxed money goes to her, I’m just arguing that there is possibly more to it than the fear of her squirting out brown babies. \* **Kimstu:** _Well, that’s true, **blinx**._ **Liberal:** _What’s true about it? If the health care is truly free, then there must be institutionalized slavery._ What I meant is that **blinx** was right to point out that there are social impact issues other than fertility involved here. I was a little bit sweeping in my assumption that a postmenopausal elderly invalid who’s supported by her own family members couldn’t be a significant burden on the rest of society in some way. As **blinx** has explained, s/he was using “free medical care” in its common usage as shorthand for “medical care that is funded by tax revenues with few or no fee-for-service charges.” Genuinely “free” medical care, as we all know, is provided by altruistic extraterrestrials. 🙂 Sorry for the confusion. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/48 "2004-10-28T11:33:40Z")
Why do you have to turn every thread you enter into some libertarian word game? ---
**Author:** ![legion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/838e76/32.png) [@legion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legion)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/49 "2004-10-28T11:42:03Z")
I’m sure that if **blinx** promised to get a tee shirt made up with the words “Liberal is correct - free health care is not really free” and promises to wear it to work for a week, then Liberals sense of outrage will be mollified. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/50 "2004-10-28T11:49:52Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > And what rights would a Danish Christian have in Pakistan? What’s that supposed tp mean? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/51 "2004-10-28T12:03:49Z")
[Constitution of Pakistan](http://www.pakistani.org/pakistan/constitution/part2.ch1.html): > [@](#): > > 1. > > Subject to law, public order and morality:- > (a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and > (b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions. > > 1. > > No person shall be compelled to pay any special tax the proceeds of which are to be spent on the propagation or maintenance of any religion other than his own. > > 1. > > (1) No person attending any educational institution shall be required to receive religious instruc tion, or take part in any religious ceremony, or attend religious worship, if such instruction, ceremony or worship relates to a religion other than his own. > > (2) In respect of any religious institution, there shall be no discrimination against any community in the granting of exemption or concession in relation to taxation. > > (3) Subject to law: > > (a) no religious community or denomination shall be prevented from providing religious instruction for pupils of that community or denomination in any educational institution maintained wholly by that community or denomination; and > (b) no citizen shall be denied admission to any educational institution receiving aid from public revenues on the ground only of race, religion, caste or place of birth. Though what bearing this has on the elderly lady’s case, I’m not sure. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/52 "2004-10-28T12:29:10Z")
> [@Mighty\_Girl](#): > > I They have a right to do so, but with that they have actually condemned my husband to exile, not that I wanted to live there anyways. > . This part is especially appalling. I never imagined it was possible that an international couple could marry, and then not choose to live in either country. It’s unfair not only to the foreign spouse but to the native as well! It’s like the native of one country gets kicked out for marrying the wrong kind of spouse. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/53 "2004-10-28T12:33:26Z")
It’s simple economics. The more social services a gov’t provides, the more they have to be concerned with the immigration situation. Denmark has socialized medicine and generous unemployment and whatnot? Then obviously they need to be careful about who dips into that well, or the well dries out. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/54 "2004-10-28T12:52:11Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > It’s simple economics. The more social services a gov’t provides, the more they have to be concerned with the immigration situation. Denmark has socialized medicine and generous unemployment and whatnot? Then obviously they need to be careful about who dips into that well, or the well dries out. So if a government provides no social services, it should have open borders? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/55 "2004-10-28T13:27:07Z")
You are all very naive if you chosse to ignore what is going on. The fact is, there ia a very sophisticated industry in just about every 3rd world country, which specializes in forging documents, setting up asylum claims, etc., to get residence for people in 1st world countries. Denmark is desireable, because of its generous socila services…same with Sweden…but the Swedes have been cracking down lately. In South America, the magnet is the USA. There is a book (obtainable in most SA cities) that tells you how to get into the USA, and what benefits are available once you get there. Of course, having a bay in the USA gives that child automatic citizenship, so there are huge numbers of pregnant women camped outside the border towns. It is a huge problem ,and getting worse, as economic conditions in the 3rd world deteriorate. I don’r blame Denmark at all, because if this woman is allowed to stay, word will get back to Pakistan, and you will have thousands of pathetic (and identical) cases to contend with. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/56 "2004-10-28T13:38:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As **blinx** has explained, s/he was using “free medical care” in its common usage as shorthand for “medical care that is funded by tax revenues with few or no fee-for-service charges.” Except for those who _pay_ the taxes, I reckon. > [@](#): > > Genuinely “free” medical care, as we all know, is provided by altruistic extraterrestrials. 🙂 Sorry for the confusion. Or earthly [charity hospitals](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=charity+hospitals). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/57 "2004-10-28T14:00:49Z")
**Liberal:** _Except for those who pay the taxes, I reckon._ 😕 But isn’t that a different type of payment from a “fee-for-service” charge, which is what the patient pays upfront for treatment? I understand the point that you’re making that taxpayer-funded medical care isn’t “free” in the strictest sense of the word, but that doesn’t mean that the name “fee-for-service charge” is an appropriate description of the taxpayer funding. **Liberal:** \*Or earthly charity hospitals. \* 😕 How is a charity hospital “free” in the strict sense of “not costing or charging anything”? Just like taxpayer-funded medical care, charity-hospital medical care is ultimately paid for by **somebody**. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/58 "2004-10-28T14:15:34Z")
> [@Kim](#): > > But isn’t that a different type of payment from a “fee-for-service” charge, which is what the patient pays upfront for treatment? Sure, in the sense that an extortion is a different type of theft than a mugging. > [@](#): > > How is a charity hospital “free” in the strict sense of “not costing or charging anything”? Because the benefactors are voluntarily _giving away_ disposable income, and the beneficiaries are paying nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/59 "2004-10-28T14:27:35Z")
**Liberal:** _Because the benefactors are voluntarily giving away disposable income, and the beneficiaries are paying nothing._ Hmmmm, I dunno. You seem to be saying that something is genuinely “free” as long as those who paid for it **wanted** to pay for it. (I bought a great free book the other day! :)) By that reasoning, taxpayer-funded medical care is also “free” if the taxpayers want to pay for it. If only some of the taxpayers are contributing willingly, that would make the system “partly free”. Too confusing. I suggest we go on using “free” just as a convenient shorthand for “taxpayer-funded or charity-funded with few or no fee-for-service charges”, or if that seems misleading, avoid the use of “free” altogether and just say “taxpayer-funded or charity-funded with few or no fee-for-service charges”. After all, I figured that the point you were trying to make is that **no** human-provided goods or services are truly, totally free. Everything’s gotta be paid for at some point by somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519/60 "2004-10-28T14:32:19Z")
> [@Kim](#): > > You seem to be saying that something is genuinely “free” as long as those who paid for it wanted to pay for it. Esse quam videri. They aren’t paying for anything. Their economic praxis is the equivalent of throwing money in the trash. They get nothing. When they go to hospital, they pay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-fuck-you-to-denmark-the-coming-shame-of-europe/271519.md?page=4)