# A gay person ADMITS that opposite-sex parents are better! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 12, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550 "2009-06-12T14:38:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/81 "2009-06-16T03:45:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > There must be something about gender roles that comes naturally to humanity, since throughout history most societies have had them. > > I’m convinced that there are genuine, built-in differences between males and females—but that for the most part these differences are average trends and general tendencies that do not apply to all individuals (in the way that the average man is taller than the average woman, but this won’t necessarily be true of a specific individual man and woman). > > If every man and every woman fit the typical pattern for their sex, then a society with distinct gender roles might well be the most natural, efficient, and satisfactory. But it would be uncomfortable, or even oppressive, for individuals whose natural tendencies and preferences didn’t mostly conform to the norm for their own gender. > > And, if every man and every woman fit the stereotypical pattern for their sex, then I believe one man + one woman would make a much better child-raising team than two men or two women. They’d complement each other, and their gender-specific strong points and outlooks on life would balance each other out. But in reality, since not everyone does fit the stereotype or even come close, it’s entirely possible to find couples of whatever gender who complement one another well, or poorly, and who do or do not together have what it takes to make a “complete set of parents” in other senses than the biological. I’ve also observed - anecdotally only - that parents tend to fit into different roles regardless of their gender. I’ve seen male-female parents where the woman is the one who does the rough play and is stricter, and the man is more into art and stuff and is an easier ride - definitely not conforming to gender stereotypes but still being of different genders. Female-female parenting couples, IME, tend to conform to gender stereotypes somewhat, too, just because you tend to get one person who’s more, say, into rough play than the other, and that role gets extended so that they’re also the parent who takes the kid out on a bike for the first time, and so on. It’s not necessarily a ‘butch-femme’ thing, either. (I don’t know any male-male parenting couples personally). It’s just about personality. Basically, in any parenting couple you tend to get one parent who has certain characteristics and one who has the opposite, even if they started out pretty much equal before they had kids. In any case, if you want a variety in a kid’s life when it comes to rough play vs. gentle play, caution vs. gung ho attitude, hair care vs. playing with guns, and whatever other gender stereotypes there are, parents will _still_ never be the only gender role models in any child’s life. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Biological parentage trumps adoption period. Do you really have a problem with that? Or, do you simply have a problem with same sex parents. > Tell that to the family courts throughout the world. Tell that to our relatives in the mammal family of the animal kingdom. I can see a few advantages to biological parenting as opposed to adopted parenting. There are the little things about inherited diseases and tendencies, and, for many people, there is also just an extra connection - though that probably goes more for the grandparents than the parents. But those advantages really are tiny (when talking about adopting babies or toddlers, at least - adopting older children is different, obviously). It’s like comparing yourself with the most perfect parent in the entire world: you’ll always fail by comparison. With parenting, you can’t realistically aim for the ideal, just the best that you can do. After all, you don’t expect your child to be perfect either - or, at least, you really shouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/82 "2009-06-16T03:55:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I had a point and I made it. If we exclude dead-beat dads running away from their kids, the courts tend to favor the fathers. > **[How many mail order marriages end in divorce? - Divorce Lawyer Source](https://www.divorce-lawyer-source.com/)** > > According to a study by the University of Utah, the number in the world is about 50%. This study looked at a group of people who had married through mail order bride agency and then divorced. The study found that the main reason why these marriages... > [@](#): > > Statistics about child custody cases indicate that the majority of the time (about 70 percent) primary custody will be awarded to the mother of the children. Less than ten percent of all child custody cases award primary custody to the father. About two in ten child custody cases involve joint custody between the two parents. What am I to conclude? That a majority of divorced fathers are dead beat dads? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/83 "2009-06-16T04:04:59Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And yet you chose to be, anyway: Never mind. I am sure you think that you are making some strong point on something or other, but it does not seem relevant to the actual discussion. What’s going on here. Are you posting as a mod or another poster. Seriously, you are hijacking this thread by making it about me. Your negative opinion of what I’m thinking is completely irrelevant. Your comments do nothing to address the actual discussion. Let me suggest you dial back this power trip you are on. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/84 "2009-06-16T07:06:02Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > What’s going on here. Are you posting as a mod or another poster. Seriously, you are hijacking this thread by making it about me. Your negative opinion of what I’m thinking is completely irrelevant. Your comments do nothing to address the actual discussion. Let me suggest you dial back this power trip you are on. No. You got snotty and, as a poster, I suggested you had no reason to behave that way. Now you want to get on your high horse and claim, “Look at me! I’m being oppressed! Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!” and then pretend that I am hijacking the thread. meh ---
**Author:** ![Blue\_Mood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@Blue\_Mood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blue_Mood)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/85 "2009-06-16T13:32:37Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > **ALL OTHER FACTORS BEING EQUAL** , I would prefer to see a child raised by a traditional male-female couple than a same-sex couple. No contest, no debate on that point. But please, remember that caveat. “All other factors being equal” The problem is that there is no such thing as all other factors being equal. A parent is more than a sum of socio-economic and cultural factors. Being a good parent is actually not about the parents at all, but about the child. Every child is different, and the bottom line is that parents who fully accept and support their children in a loving and nurturing environment will be good ones, regardless of external factors. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/86 "2009-06-16T13:45:01Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. You got snotty and, as a poster, I suggested you had no reason to behave that way. Now you want to get on your high horse and claim, “Look at me! I’m being oppressed! Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!” and then pretend that I am hijacking the thread. > > meh There’s some lovely filth over here. 🙂 Quoting Python always makes me laugh. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/87 "2009-06-16T14:12:18Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. You got snotty and, as a poster, I suggested you had no reason to behave that way. Now you want to get on your high horse and claim, “Look at me! I’m being oppressed! Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!” and then pretend that I am hijacking the thread. > > meh First off, quote a statement of mine you regard as snotty prior to your intervention. Secondly, even if you have an opinion on what is snotty or isn’t, what the hell does that have to do with the discussion? Thirdly, what does polygamy have to do with child rearing and where did you get the idea that men are preferred for child custody awards in the US? I strongly suspect all this is a result of your attempt to distract us from a couple of ill informed statements on your part. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/88 "2009-06-16T14:55:18Z")
> [@Flying Dutchman](#): > > I strongly suspect all this is a result of your attempt to distract us from a couple of ill informed statements on your part. Meanwhile, I’m still waiting for you stop being so “distracted” to actually respond to my post. Here it is. Again: > [@Hamlet](#): > > You can, I suppose. But is there any actual support for your blatant generalities (for one I have a problem with single parent biological being better than two parent adopted) of is this just **Flying Dutchman’s Guide to Best Parents**. > > And, more importantly, why should this list matter one whit? Surely you don’t believe courts, legislatures, or people should rely on this “list” to make determinations about adoption, child custody, or parentage? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/89 "2009-06-16T15:30:01Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > First off, quote a statement of mine you regard as snotty prior to your intervention. My “intervention”? All I did was post an opinion in regards to the thread. :rolleyes: Your initial statement to which I responded was posted without context or explanation and I noted that posters were inferring different meanings from that, indicating that a bit of explication might improve the discussion. And the following whole paragraph is unnecessarily snide: [Quote=The Flying Dutchman] Biological parentage trumps adoption period. Do you really have a problem with that? Or, do you simply have a problem with same sex parents. [/quote] > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Secondly, even if you have an opinion on what is snotty or isn’t, what the hell does that have to do with the discussion? Since the discussion was fairly even-keeled at that point, I was hoping that a bit of civility would keep it that way–something that seems to be beyond both your understanding and your capacity to carry out, judging by how you insist on keeping that issue alive. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Thirdly, what does polygamy have to do with child rearing and where did you get the idea that men are preferred for child custody awards in the US? Polygyny, not polygamy. You made the claim that courts across the world supported single mothers over single fathers and then invoked a claim for biology to support that position. I noted that the trend has been strongly shifting away from that presupposition in the courts, (and I never claimed that men were prefered, noting only that in my anecdotal experience, if men chose to stay involved, they had a slightly better chance to get custody). I further noted that there is no such thing as “single parenting” among primates, rendering that appeal irrelevant. As to the number of times when custody is awarded to mothers over fathers, my guess would be that the “70%” figure is heavily skewed by the number of times that either the fathers have left the family or the number of times that the father and mother both agree, for whatever reason, that the children should stay with the mother. (E.g., father has better income and mother has better resources for child-rearing if supplemented by father’s external income.) At any rate, I am willing to concede that the divorce courts have not come as far as I had believed and that courts still tend to award custody to mothers. That actually says nothing about whether biological parenting “trumps” adoptive parenting. There are many biological parents who simply fall into the position of parenting merely by engaging in sex. One could, (although I would not), make the case that adoptive parenting might generally trump biological parenting because adoption is always a deliberate choice while biological parenting is often an accident. I suspect that either generalization is silly. Humans become parents for a wide variety of reasons at the personal level and once they find themselves in the roles of parents, many do outstandingly well and many do extremely poorly, (regardless of their original motives), and most fall between the extremes. Making claims about one method of becoming a parent “trumping” (whatever the heck that means), another method of becoming a parent are nothing more than WAGs that are irrelevant to a discussion of whether same sex parenting is “better” in some vague and undefinable way, than opposite sex parenting–particularly when neither opposite sex parenting nor same sex parenting is limited to either procreation or adoption. Children enter both OSM families and SSM families through both procreation and adoption. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/90 "2009-06-17T01:54:38Z")
sorry about my getting distracted > [@Hamlet](#): > > You can, I suppose. But is there any actual support for your blatant generalities (for one I have a problem with single parent biological being better than two parent adopted) of is this just **Flying Dutchman’s Guide to Best Parents**. Yes. My guide holds biology as a powerful incentive for nurturing. YMMV. And I respect your opinion as well and have seen many examples of adopted children raised with the utmost love and care as well. Simply put though I surmise that these specific adopting parents would exercise at least the same love and care for their own while I know that loving and caring biological parents don’t or can’t always treat their adopted children as well. And , moreover, what child would not prefer that his loving parent was connected to him by blood. > [@](#): > > And, more importantly, why should this list matter one whit? Surely you don’t believe courts, legislatures, or people should rely on this “list” to make determinations about adoption, child custody, or parentage? You are ascribing way more importance to my list than I ever intended. I just wanted to get my opinion out there. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/91 "2009-06-17T02:07:31Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Yes. My guide holds biology as a powerful incentive for nurturing. YMMV. > And I respect your opinion as well and have seen many examples of adopted children raised with the utmost love and care as well. Simply put though I surmise that these specific adopting parents would exercise at least the same love and care for their own while I know that loving and caring biological parents don’t or can’t always treat their adopted children as well. But do you have unbiased evidence? You could just as easily argue that kids who are adopted are happier because they feel they were chosen. I’m not saying that argument is valid, I’m just saying there’s no evidence for either way being better, necessarily. Like, your list of best parents in an ideal world that starts out with two biological parents–is there any support, or is this just your opinion of what is best? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/92 "2009-06-17T02:11:37Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But do you have unbiased evidence? You could just as easily argue that kids who are adopted are happier because they feel they were chosen. I’m not saying that argument is valid, I’m just saying there’s no evidence for either way being better, necessarily. Like, your list of best parents in an ideal world that starts out with two biological parents–is there any support, or is this just your opinion of what is best? Frankly, I have nothing better to support my statements than what I’ve already provided. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/93 "2009-06-17T02:13:10Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Frankly, I have nothing better to support my statements than what I’ve already provided. But you haven’t cited any evidence for your list of the ideal parents. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/94 "2009-06-17T02:24:06Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > But you haven’t cited any evidence for your list of the ideal parents. You don’t have to accept my list. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/95 "2009-06-17T02:34:54Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Yes. My guide holds biology as a powerful incentive for nurturing. YMMV. My apologies if this is what you mean by your later point, but; doesn’t the fact that adoptive parents have had to go through a rather rigorous process involving paperwork, a lot of other people, along with checkups and so forth, as opposed to biological parents whose one bar is having sex, indicate that adoptive parents are more likely to have a desire to nurture? I mean, even with your powerful incentive, it seems to me what you’ve got is a predisposition matched up against actual worked-for evidence of commitment. I mean, it’s sort of like looking at two sportsmen, one with an Olympic gold and the other with an athletic physique, and declaring that the latter wants success more. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/96 "2009-06-17T02:37:11Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > You don’t have to accept my list. Okay…but this being great debates, what’s the point of putting up a list if it’s just your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/97 "2009-06-17T02:45:06Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Yes. My guide holds biology as a powerful incentive for nurturing. YMMV. And I respect your opinion as well and have seen many examples of adopted children raised with the utmost love and care as well. Simply put though I surmise that these specific adopting parents would exercise at least the same love and care for their own while I know that loving and caring biological parents don’t or can’t always treat their adopted children as well. See, to me, it seems that parents who go through the complexities and hassles of adoption have a much more “powerful incentive for nurturing” than a great number of biological parents who, through the vagaries of fate, find themselves with child. I find the very idea that a single parent would be a better parent than two adoptive ones to be untenable. > [@The Flying Dutchman](#): > > And , moreover, what child would not prefer that his loving parent was connected to him by blood. That preference doesn’t even come into consideration until the child is into their teens. Infants, toddlers, and a vast majority of those under 13 don’t even understand the difference between biological and adoptive parents (outside of names on the playground). > [@Flying Dutchman](#): > > You are ascribing way more importance to my list than I ever intended. I just wanted to get my opinion out there. Good to know. If only the majority of “social conservatives” out there ascribed the same level of importance to their own opinions, we’d be in much better shape. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/98 "2009-06-17T04:03:31Z")
Completely anecdotal, small sample group . . . All the adopted kids I knew and know have awesome parents and are pretty well adjusted. I can’t say the same for . . . god . . . seems like at least half the kids of bio parents I grew up with. And I don’t know any children of divorce who aren’t/weren’t noticeably worse from it. I would tentatively put adoptive parents right next to biological parents in a tie for first place. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/99 "2009-06-17T04:42:35Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > See, to me, it seems that parents who go through the complexities and hassles of adoption have a much more “powerful incentive for nurturing” than a great number of biological parents who, through the vagaries of fate, find themselves with child. I’ll have to concede to you and **Revenant** on this one. Still, I can’t wrap my head around the idea that being adopted is a preferred situation. > [@](#): > > I find the very idea that a single parent would be a better parent than two adoptive ones to be untenable. Putting it that way, I’d have to agree. My list isn’t solely based on better parenting, but more so on my perception that being cared for by a biological parent is an inherent value to the mental health of the child, once they are able to understand their situation relative to others. > [@](#): > > Good to know. If only the majority of “social conservatives” out there ascribed the same level of importance to their own opinions, we’d be in much better shape. I’m not a social conservative if that is what you are implying. ---
**Author:** ![AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AboutAsWeirdAsYouCanGet)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550/100 "2009-06-18T04:55:06Z")
> [@](#): > > There must be something about gender roles that comes naturally to humanity, since throughout history most societies have had them. Yes, but i’s a question of whether it’s nature or nuture. Yes, there have been plentyof socieities with gender roles, but there have also been tons of people who buck the gender status quo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gay-person-admits-that-opposite-sex-parents-are-better/499550.md?page=6)