# A grammar pet peeve: Hanged vs. Hung **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 28, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669 "2013-02-28T21:33:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/121 "2013-03-05T07:32:50Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I was referring to the pronunciation of “caramel.” The three-syllable example has the accent on the second syllable instead of the first. What country are you from? “car-á-mel”? Any time I have heard three syllables, the accent has always been “cár-a-mel” or “car-a-mél”, never on the second syllable. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/122 "2013-03-05T12:31:31Z")
> [@For You](#): > > What country are you from? “car-á-mel”? Any time I have heard three syllables, the accent has always been “cár-a-mel” or “car-a-mél”, never on the second syllable. According to M-W, they don’t even show the last syllable being emphasized, but they do show it pronounced as “carmel”. ˈkär-məl; ˈker-ə-məl, ˈka-rə-, -ˌmel\ Also, when the word adds ize (ise) to the end, the pronounciation definitely changes to ˈkär-məl līz, I’ve never heard ˈka-rə-, -ˌmel līz. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/123 "2013-03-05T12:51:45Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > According to M-W, they don’t even show the last syllable being emphasized, but they do show it pronounced as “carmel”. > ˈkär-məl; ˈker-ə-məl, ˈka-rə-, -ˌmel\ > > Also, when the word adds ize (ise) to the end, the pronounciation definitely changes to ˈkär-məl līz, **I’ve never heard ˈka-rə-, -ˌmel līz**. [Here you go!](http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=caramelize&submit=Submit) This is one of my peeves, “I’ve never heard \_\_\_\_\_\_\_” is not a valid argument. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/124 "2013-03-05T13:16:14Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > [Here you go!](http://www.howjsay.com/index.php?word=caramelize&submit=Submit) > > This is one of my peeves, “I’ve never heard \_\_\_\_\_\_\_” is not a valid argument. Gee, yes, speaking personally that I’ve never heard of something is quite the “argument” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/125 "2013-03-05T14:15:48Z")
(Concerning the pronunciation of ‘sherbet.’) > [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](#): > > Sure, but there’s gotta be someone who does, althoughI’ve never heard it pronounced without the second “r,” either. > [@For You](#): > > This could be addressed in one of those threads about rhotic-speakers. . .. Eh, _WHOOSH_? I realize that your response was very sincere and factual. Mine, however, was done with some levity. But after further review, mine was kinda dumb, so it desereved to be whooshed. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/126 "2013-03-05T14:17:32Z")
> [@For You](#): > > What country are you from? “car-á-mel”? Any time I have heard three syllables, the accent has always been “cár-a-mel” or “car-a-mél”, never on the second syllable. I was referring to this: > [@MacLir](#): > > It’s CARAMEL (kare-a’-mel), people! Carmel (kar’-mel) is a mountain in Israel and a city (kar-mel’) in central California. **MacLir** denotes the accent as being on the second syllable. I was correcting him saying that, no, it’s on the first syllable in the three syllable pronunciation. When I wrote “The three-syllable example has the accent on the second syllable instead of the first” I meant _his_ three-syllable example. That’s why I used the word “example” instead of “pronunciation” because I was referring to his example. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/127 "2013-03-05T14:25:45Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > This is one of my peeves, “I’ve never heard \_\_\_\_\_\_\_” is not a valid argument. In a language thread, sure, it’s interesting to note. There’s no “argument” being made here, just observation of popular usage. I’ve heard both the two and three syllable pronunciations of caramel, and, as I said above, I use both myself (although I think I’m mostly a two-syllable speaker now. At one point, I used the three syllable pronunciation more.) Like **stpauler** , though, I’ve never heard “caramelize” used with the three syllable pronunciation. I find that somewhat interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/128 "2013-03-05T15:19:08Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And [here’s another interesting deconstruction of “could care less”](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001209.html), with analogies to forms like “I could give a flying fuck.” > > But here’s another part that sticks out for me: > > So, yeah, it’s here to stay and is a solidly entrenched American idiom. It may be here to stay, like _more then_ is here to stay, **but it is still wrong**. It doesn’t matter how many links you post that try to figure out when and why the first person **got it wrong** and other morons followed suit. **It’s still every bit as wrong as _more then_**. But by all means, keep using it if you don’t mind looking like a fool. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/129 "2013-03-05T15:43:49Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > It may be here to stay, like _more then_ is here to stay, **but it is still wrong**. It doesn’t matter how many links you post that try to figure out when and why the first person **got it wrong** and other morons followed suit. **It’s still every bit as wrong as _more then_**. > > But by all means, keep using it if you don’t mind looking like a fool. I could give a fuck. 😉 I absolutely disagree that it’s every bit as wrong as “more then.” And the more is pisses pedants off, the more I will use it. It’s perfectly idiomatic and acceptable. I don’t see anyone defending “more then.” That’s a spelling mistake. That’s not an idiom. Find me one person defending that usage as correct. “I could care less” is idiom. Plenty of people who know more than you (and I) do about language are fine with it. And it might not even be a mistake. Have you read any of the explanations as to its usage and genesis I’ve linked to? Or are you so closed and so adamant in your dismissal of the phrase that you are not going to consider those arguments? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/130 "2013-03-05T15:52:28Z")
Out of curiosity, do you have the same problem with the phrase “head over heels”? If something is in an inverted or atypical state, shouldn’t it be “heels over head”? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/131 "2013-03-05T16:03:51Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > It may be here to stay, like _more then_ is here to stay, **but it is still wrong**. It doesn’t matter how many links you post that try to figure out when and why the first person **got it wrong** and other morons followed suit. **It’s still every bit as wrong as _more then_**. How exactly do you think the language you revere so much came to be? ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/132 "2013-03-05T16:29:51Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I could give a fuck. 😉 > > I absolutely disagree that it’s every bit as wrong as “more then.” And the more is pisses pedants off, the more I will use it. It’s perfectly idiomatic and acceptable. I don’t see anyone defending “more then.” That’s a spelling mistake. That’s not an idiom. Find me one person defending that usage as correct. “I could care less” is idiom. Plenty of people who know more than you (and I) do about language are fine with it. And it might not even be a mistake. Have you read any of the explanations as to its usage and genesis I’ve linked to? Or are you so closed and so adamant in your dismissal of the phrase that you are not going to consider those arguments? I’ve read them all, and others, as well. I’m a professional copy editor, and you will never convince me that this particular **mistake** is an acceptable usage of the idiom. Just because people who refuse to accept correct usage continue to argue in favor of using a misunderstood and misused idiom, doesn’t _therefore_ make it correct, so your argument that no one is “defending” _more then_ is utterly irrelevant. > [@](#): > > [Regardless of the reason](http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/could-couldnt-care-less.aspx) people say they could care less, it is one of the more common language peeves because of its illogical nature. To say you could care less means you have a bit of caring left, which is not what the speakers seem to intend. **The proper “couldn’t care less” is still the dominant form in print** , but “could care less” has been steadily gaining ground since its appearance in the 1960s. > > **What Should You Do?** Stick with “couldn’t care less.” And I couldn’t care less how much you insist on using it; it’s your call if you want to look ignorant. > [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > How exactly do you think the language you revere so much came to be? Don’t insult me. I’m perfectly aware that language grows and changes. But that doesn’t mean incorrect uses of terms or idioms or other grammar constructs are proper just because people start using them. You are free to write _alright_ all you’d like, as millions of people do. It’s in the dictionary, too. It’s still non-standard and [considered _incorrect_](https://www.google.com/search?q=alright+versus+all+right). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/133 "2013-03-05T16:36:44Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I’ve read them all, and others, as well. I’m a professional copy editor, and you will never convince me that this particular **mistake** is an acceptable usage of the idiom. Suit yourself. Even in [The New York Times](http://www.visualthesaurus.com/cm/wordroutes/do-we-care-less-about-could-care-less/) “could care less” is on pace to overtake “couldn’t care less.” It’s an American idiom. Period. You can correct it in formal speech. Colloquially, it’s perfectly fine. Like I asked you, do you have the same objections to “head over heels”? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/134 "2013-03-05T16:43:45Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > But that doesn’t mean incorrect uses of terms or idioms or other grammar constructs are proper just because people start using them. The thing is, they might not be simple errors. There are several theories on the genesis of the phrase that suggest to me “I could care less” might not be simple erroneous repetition. I personally like the “negation by association” explanation I linked to [previously.](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/001209.html) I also do think Steven Pinker has a point with the inflection of the phrase being different than a straight declarative sentence, but I’m not convinced it’s a sarcastic tone, as he does. But I personally don’t care if it’s an “error” or not, I prefer the euphony and quirk of the colloquial “could care less” to the flat literalism of “couldn’t care less.” Would I use it in a formal paper? No, of course not. Would I change it in the formal non-editorial copy of a newspaper? Yes, unless it was quoted material. Would I use it when talking with friend, absolutely. Just like I use “ain’t” and double negatives and “borrow” to mean “lend.” ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/135 "2013-03-05T16:45:26Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > I’m perfectly aware that language grows and changes. But that doesn’t mean incorrect uses of terms or idioms or other grammar constructs are proper just because people start using them. Actually, that’s exactly what it means. It’s not purely democratic, indeed, if it were the correct forms would be some strange simplified English by way of Mandarin or the like, but yes, as a form is adapted by the speakers of a language, it can grow and develop sometimes even into the standard dialect. By your logic, however, we would be forced to regard as wrong words like uncle, apron and nickname which would be quite silly, I’m sure you’ll agree. No one is requiring you personally to use I could care less and frankly, I don’t care if you want to rail against it. But stating that it’s somehow objectively wrong is going to reduce your credibility among everyone except Safire-ian Jeremiahs. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/136 "2013-03-05T16:50:56Z")
> [@Shayna](#): > > It’s still non-standard and [considered _incorrect_](https://www.google.com/search?q=alright+versus+all+right). The first hit from your link says > [@](#): > > And the American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style (7) seems to contradict itself. It states that “alright” as one word “has never been accepted as standard” but it then goes on to explain that “all right” as two words and “alright” as one word have two distinct meanings. It gives the example of the sentence “The figures are all right.” When you use “all right” as two words, the sentence means “the figures are all accurate.” When you write “The figures are alright,” with “alright” as one word, this source explains that the sentence means “the figures are satisfactory.” I’m not sure what to make of this contradiction. The many other grammar sources I checked, including a large dictionary, reject “alright” as one word. Regular listeners of this show know that language is always in flux, so perhaps “alright” as one word is gaining a small footing. Not even Grammar Girl is as dead set as you, which isn’t surprising. In general, I think GG has a pretty good understanding of correctness standards. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/137 "2013-03-05T16:56:38Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The first hit from your link says Not even Grammar Girl is as dead set as you, which isn’t surprising. In general, I think GG has a pretty good understanding of correctness standards. Yeah, [this is the link to Grammar Girl on “Could Care Less.”](http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/could-couldnt-care-less.aspx) Her short explanation is actually pretty even keeled and sensible. She recommends using “couldn’t care less,” which is exactly what I would recommend, because this phrase is, as you can tell from this thread, pretty touchy among a certain set. ---
**Author:** ![Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/4bbf92/32.png) [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heart_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/138 "2013-03-05T18:09:50Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > My area of confusion: Is there a difference between “complete” and “compleat”? Is one of these non-cromulent? Since nobody addressed this yet, I’ll give it a go. In my mind, the words are semantically similar, but different. In my experience, “complete”, as an adjective, means “full, total, whole, not missing anything”, while “compleat” is more like “highly skilled/accomplished, consummate, exemplary, ideal”. But according to the internets, they are considered variants, and I can see how the two senses are related: I could give “perfect” as another definition for either word. There are situations in which they I agree they could both be used: “She is a complete professional.” - she is not lacking any aspect of professionalism “She is a compleat professional.” - she is an ideal example of a professional But that’s not always the case, in my opinion: “These are the complete works of Shakespeare.” - this is everything he wrote “These are the compleat works of Shakespeare.” - these are the best things he wrote (???) But the main difference is that “compleat” is becoming antiquated. Spellcheck doesn’t care for it at all. (Then again, it doesn’t like “spellcheck”, either, so maybe take that with a grain of salt. ) ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/139 "2013-03-05T18:32:44Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The first hit from your link says > > > [@](#): > > > > And the American Heritage Guide to Contemporary Usage and Style (7) seems to contradict itself. It states that “alright” as one word “has never been accepted as standard” but it then goes on to explain that “all right” as two words and “alright” as one word have two distinct meanings. It gives the example of the sentence “The figures are all right.” When you use “all right” as two words, the sentence means “the figures are all accurate.” When you write “The figures are alright,” with “alright” as one word,\*\* this source explains that the sentence means “the figures are satisfactory.” I’m not sure what to make of this contradiction. The many other grammar sources I checked, including a large dictionary, reject “alright” as one word. Regular listeners of this show know that language is always in flux, so perhaps “alright” as one word is gaining a small footing\*\*. > > Not even Grammar Girl is as dead set as you, which isn’t surprising. In general, I think GG has a pretty good understanding of correctness standards. Bullshit. Look at the bold part. She’s giving _one_ example to her readers/listeners because it’s “out there,” calling it a contradiction, and reiterating that the other sources she checked **reject _alright_** even though it is “gaining traction.” She concludes by saying: > [@Grammar Girl](#): > > **remember that “alright” as one word is currently not acceptable English** But hey, points for selective quoting there, dude. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669/140 "2013-03-05T18:36:50Z")
Love how these threads get some folks’ dander up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-grammar-pet-peeve-hanged-vs-hung/651669.md?page=8)