# A great commentary on the United States from an English Reporter **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 21, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967 "2003-03-21T02:01:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tilly)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/1 "2003-03-21T02:01:14Z")
I am new to this board. I have been reading a lot but I thought I would get a feel for it as not to make too much of an ass out of myself and have yawl throw cherry pies at me…lol I lived in NYC the last 13 years or so but returned back to the south after Sep. 11th 2001. I kind of had a front row seat for the fireworks and it was just not the same for me afterwards. Now I am kind of hawkish even before getting caught in a terrorist attack but I am level headed (A conservative southern democrat but I think Dashel is an ass). I have a problem with those that are in the real liberal contingency that could not possibly believe that the US Government or those that agree with us whole heartedly could have any other reason for going to War with this other than greed and power. With that being said I thought yawl might enjoy this article, one of my friends from London sent me. It really says exactly how I see this present situation on the big screen. Enjoy… Tilly * * * An Article from England. No matter what your views on President Bush’s statement of upcoming war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word of background, for those of you who aren’t familiar with the UK’s Daily Mirror (yea I know it is a rag but sometimes they do put forth a good foot, like with this one). This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic. * * * Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002 One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting - - the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot’s Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. […] No, do more than remember. Never forget. **[Copyrighted material edited. Please use links or a _short_ excerpt only. --Gaudere]** ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/2 "2003-03-21T02:25:42Z")
So because we didn’t turn a big portion of the world into a parking lot, we’re greatest thing since sliced bread? I don’t know what restraint Tony is referencing. We immediately went to war and promptly killed at least hundreds of non-combatants (some believe upwards to 4,000). And our administration has indicated its willingness to keep going to war to prevent terrorism even if the country hasn’t explicitly supported terrorism against us(yet). By the end of this (if it does end) we will easily eclipse the 9/11 figures in innocent deaths. I honestly don’t see what I would call restraint. Perhaps I could call it enough patience to make war on one nation at a time. ---
**Author:** ![McDuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@McDuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/McDuff)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/3 "2003-03-21T02:32:19Z")
Hasn’t this been posted before? And haven’t people gone through it, step by step, and pointed out the fallacies? ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/4 "2003-03-21T02:34:49Z")
The article did appear in the _Mirror_ according to [Snopes](http://www.snopes.com/rumors/shame.htm). If anyone is interested. [sub](I was thinking this had been done before as well)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/5 "2003-03-21T02:55:26Z")
Thank you. It is nice to see that others have not forgotten. I guess the reason that some think Iraq (or at least its government) has that airplane fuselage in the desert training camp outside of Baghdad is to practice the proper serving of coffee, not to practice hijacking, since they don’t support terrorism. Right. It’s a good thing that the U.S., Great Britain and the other allies during WWII were willing to go to war against more than one country at a time. Where are the protests against Hussein and his atrocities? Even Syria agreed in November that he had violated the conditions of the treaty that ended the first Gulf war. I think there has been remarkable restraint not to have started in on him MONTHS ago. We did not “immediately” go to war. We started by dropping food to the people of Afghanistan, for Pete’s sake. BTW, that 4000 civilian death figure was made up by a New England teacher who did some personal calculations based on little or no evidence, and was then quoted and requoted by others as if it were fact. It has no evidence behind it. I sure hope that we will continue to take action by whatever means necessary to stop these murderers before they strike again. ---
**Author:** ![tilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tilly)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/6 "2003-03-21T03:10:06Z")
So you are saying, if you knew beforehand that what occurred on 9/11 was coming and you knew who it was but you did not know when, you would not have gone to war beforehand to defend yourself or prevent your people from being killed by murderers… Sorry but I would rather take the criticism of those that believe like you Errata and I can live with that, instead of sitting around waiting to see if something might happen. Meanwhile a dangerous dictator who is a loose cannon from hell, with a track record that wraps around the world and access to endless weapons, pulls off a spectacular terrorist attack or contributes to it, so that I can tell you “told you so”… This guy had no intention of ever disarming regardless of who voted for what at the UN General Council. And why bother, you got France over there sucking your D!(& being one of the finest whores ever to service and enjoy getting off while they please… Bush is serving us very well and I damn glad he is the one running the show… You should know that if you screw with this country or you screw with any of our allies then you will pay most likely with your life and we will take you out of power for the better of your people and ours. Well at least I am not alone MSL… ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/7 "2003-03-21T03:35:33Z")
No, tilly, you are not. Actually I hear that the U.S. Senate just passed a motion approving the conduct of the war (sorry, I don’t have a cite, just heard it on the t.v. in the next room). And polls indicate that from 65 to 75% of Americans approve. I don’t know the occupation or age of anyone here, but I know that there are 4 people in my home, 2 middle aged and 2 20-somethings, and for once we all agree. (I am one of the middle-aged ones.) The 20-somethings are not ivory tower academics; they and their friends are working folks. The sentiments I hear from them all are very similar to yours. Of course the fact that we saw 9/11 occur literally before our eyes may be a factor. Anybody tries to kill my children I take it kind of personally. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/8 "2003-03-21T03:47:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tilly \* > So you are saying, if you knew beforehand that what occurred on 9/11 was coming and you knew who it was but you did not know when, you would not have gone to war beforehand to defend yourself or prevent your people from being killed by murderers… That’s saying a lot more than what we know about Iraq. > [@](#): > > Sorry but I would rather take the criticism of those that believe like you Errata and I can live with that, instead of sitting around waiting to see if something might happen. Forget about my criticism, why don’t you think about the innocents that are dying in the name of your safety? > [@](#): > > And why bother, you got France over there sucking your D!(& being one of the finest whores ever to service and enjoy getting off while they please… my,my. a rather saucy metaphor :o > [@](#): > > You should know that if you screw with this country or you screw with any of our allies then you will pay most likely with your life and we will take you out of power for the better of your people and ours. This quote I guess is another example of the miraculous restraint the peaceful people this great nation show :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@tilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tilly)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/9 "2003-03-21T04:38:54Z")
I tell you what; I will start with the 11 innocent that I lost out of my office on September 11th and the 40 other friends I lost in other floors of WT … As far as the innocents that get killed, you would think we are just going in there and killing everything that moves and seeing what poor bastard might still be living when the dust settles… We are using our technology with deadly accuracy to prevent any non-military death as best we can. Get of the cross we need the wood…It is a war not a bloody picnic… What about all of the innocent he has killed in his own country … Why don’t you cry for them or what he inflicts on them everyday. It is ok for us to turn a blind eye to someone who would kill us if ever given the chance and kills all of those innocents you have so much concern for every day as long as we don’t have any responsibility for the death… What a crock… That is like saying you would not shoot someone waving a gun around threatening to kill people around him because you don’t believe in taking a life regardless of the circumstances… Yes and my analogy may be saucy but it is the blunt truth… Gets the point across without any question as to my view on the matter…And fits the French government quite well under the circumstances I don’t believe in beating around the Bush (no pun intended)… There comes a time when common sense needs to give way to holding hands and singing koom by ya wanting to talk about our feelings… Harry S Truman… The buck stops here!!! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/10 "2003-03-21T04:55:44Z")
Thank you, tilly, again. My thoughts exactly. I wonder how much some of these folks so vociferously protesting today have protested the horrible, obscene atrocities Hussein and his cohorts have committed? I wonder how many letters they have written to China demanding the safe return of the Panchen Lama? Or protesting the occupation of Tibet and the obliteration of its culture? BTW, there was a great piece of art work done by a 17-year-old girl shortly after September 11 called “Mommy Liberty.”’ If you didn’t see it, [here](http://www.wired.com/news/photo/0,1860,47102,00.html) is a link to it. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/11 "2003-03-21T05:01:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tilly \* > What about all of the innocent he has killed in his own country … Why don’t you cry for them or what he inflicts on them everyday. If I thought the people of Iraq wanted us there, that might change my opinion. But as it stands this is an invasion of a country which has not attacked us. > [@](#): > > That is like saying you would not shoot someone waving a gun around threatening to kill people around him because you don’t believe in taking a life regardless of the circumstances… Yeah only throw in the fact that a lot others are going to die before you get to that man, and the people around him are asking you not to get involved. Your eagerness to kill, and your dismissive attitude towards the long term effects of the pre-emptive policies, pretty much negate anything your British writer was lauding. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/12 "2003-03-21T11:15:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > **I guess the reason that some think Iraq (or at least its government) has that airplane fuselage in the desert training camp outside of Baghdad is to practice the proper serving of coffee, not to practice hijacking, since they don’t support terrorism. Right.** Do you have a cite for this? Preferably a credible news source (i.e. not Rush Limbaugh). ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/13 "2003-03-21T11:19:18Z")
Please note that Tony Parsons is about as credible a journalist as his ex-wife, Julie Burchill, and the Daily Mirror is not “notoriously left-wing” but a tabloid attempting to be deliberately controversial to differentiate itself from the further-right Sun. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/14 "2003-03-21T13:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by errata \* > \*\* But as it stands this is an invasion of a country which has not attacked us._\* So was the first Gulf War, the Korean War, and WWI. Mussolini and Hitler didn’t attack us first either. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by errata \* > \*\* > Yeah only throw in the fact that a lot others are going to die before you get to that man, and the people around him are asking you not to get involved._\* You base your opposition to the war on the fact that Saddam Hussein’s associates don’t want us to disarm him? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by errata \* > \*\*Your eagerness to kill, and your dismissive attitude towards the long term effects of the pre-emptive policies, pretty much negate anything your British writer was lauding. \*\* And the flaws in your analogies and moral reasoning negate what you are lauding. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/15 "2003-03-21T13:56:50Z")
I spent several years of my earlier life sitting in a metal pipe waiting for permission to nuke Russia. I fully support using whatever means necessary to respond to an attack on America or her allies. I feel that the current administration is not pursuing the remaining Al Qaida terrorists with sufficient vigor. This aggressive action against a sovereign nation is one I cannot in good conscience support. It is against everything I believe America stands for to instigate an unprovoked invasion of another country. It would be different if the people had asked us for help in removing Saddam, but it seems to me that violent overthrow of a government by an outside force doesn’t bring about much affection for the invaders. To claim that you hit first because you thought the other was going to hit you someday is the reasoning of a schoolyard bully. That sort of thinking would have had us turn large areas of Russia into glowing craters back in the day. First strike policies do not serve to enhance the safety of America or the world. It takes a lot to get me to make any kind of political comment, so don’t be surprised if I don’t come back to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/16 "2003-03-21T15:31:17Z")
I share the same perspective as **DrFidelius** , I think, having spent some time in the late 70’s making circles underwater in the north Atlantic, waiting to kill a few million people if called upon to do so. I agree entirely with **DrF** ’s first three paragraphs. (But it takes very little invitation to get me to wax political, so I can’t endorse that last one… 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/17 "2003-03-21T16:12:02Z")
Mr2001, how about this cite from [PBS](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/gunning/interviews/khodada.html)? Or [this](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3284-614607,00.html) from a British Labour MP? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/18 "2003-03-21T16:25:00Z")
Oh, and here’s another from that bastion of right-wing thought, the[New York Times](http://query.nytimes.com/search/article-page.html?res=9B01EED81E39F93BA35752C1A9679C8B63) . ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/19 "2003-03-21T16:33:13Z")
During the O.J. Simpson trial, a lot of blacks supported the defense not because they believed the evidence pointed to his innocence, but because of how they’d been made to _feel_ by a series of unrelated incidents involving the police. Similarly, a lot of Americans support the war on Iraq not because there is any credible evidence linking Iraq to Al-queda, or that Iraq is likely to attack the US with WMD’s, but because of how 9/11 made us _feel_. ---
**Author:** ![errata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/839c29/32.png) [@errata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/errata)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2003, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967/20 "2003-03-21T17:14:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > So was the first Gulf War, the Korean War, and WWI. Mussolini and Hitler didn’t attack us first either. Oh please. If you throw out WWII( I assume WWI was a typo) in connection with this war, I can’t be expected to order new glasses for you. Atacking an ally can be tantamount to attacking us, that’s the whole point of having allies. Even GW will acknowledge this is not a response to an attack but to a possible threat. > [@](#): > > You base your opposition to the war on the fact that Saddam Hussein’s associates don’t want us to disarm him? NO the Iraqi public at large doesn’t want us there > [@](#): > > And the flaws in your analogies and moral reasoning negate what you are lauding. I didn’t come up with the analogies nor am I lauding anything. Care to say something that makes sense? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-great-commentary-on-the-united-states-from-an-english-reporter/162967.md?page=2)