# A group not protesting an atrocity = endorsing said atrocity? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312 "2015-01-08T14:46:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/1 "2015-01-08T14:46:27Z")
Or something like that. I have a family relation who loves to jump at every opportunity to attack Muslims, and his favourite criticism is that, for example, after the Paris shootings yesterday, or after the beheading of Fusillier Lee Rigby in London in 2013, he never sees large groups of Muslims joining together and loudly and vocally protesting and condemning the attacks. Therefore (his argument is), they all (or nearly all) accept, even approve of the atrocities, and so they’re all just as bad. I don’t find it persuasive but I find it difficult to articulate and/or provide examples or counterexamples. My thoughts are going on the lines of this: 1. I don’t see (for example) major news coverage of Israelis condemning whenever a Palestinian child or unarmed person is killed (but then, that could just be me not spotting it), or other such examples 2. many Muslims don’t live in free countries, therefore don’t have the freedom to speak out, or assemble, in a way that wouldn’t get them killed. Similarly, those that live in the West, immediately after such attacks, are probably pretty scared and so don’t feel like sticking their heads above the parapet, even if it’s in sympathy 3. people are just people, and don’t think collectively all that much, and are just living and working from day to day. The notion of gathering together to protest such atrocities doesn’t occur unless you are already vested into a specific cause or campaign. Do these make sense, or am I barking up the wrong tree? I find it wrong to use such a cheap shot as this to condemn Muslims, the majority of which I think are perfectly decent people living in quiet desperation like the rest of us - they aren’t performing monkeys that we should expect to ‘perform’ for us whenever we expect them to pay tribute and penance for the crimes of their demented poor relations. Would be interested to hear your views. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/2 "2015-01-08T15:23:07Z")
Ask him if he’s ever seen anyone protesting Jimmy Saville. Then ask him if that means everyone in Britain endorse sex offenses against children. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/3 "2015-01-08T15:39:56Z")
It’s a bit tangential, but I think the OP is bearing the notion that “Muslims” are a homogenous, cohesive group like “Christians” or “Jews” or even “Liberals” - some card-carrying organization with a head office and a PR spokesbeing. Muslim groups are plentiful and each has its own voice. They just aren’t heard any more often or above the din than, say, the largest Episcopal church in Topeka, or the most respected temple in Boise. The nominally Islamic equivalents of Westboro Baptist Church tend to get national headline news, though, and for much the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/4 "2015-01-08T16:57:59Z")
[INTERVIEW WITH A MUSLIM](http://religiondispatches.org/interview-with-a-muslim/) > [@](#): > > Q: Do you as a Muslim condemn this attack? > A: Well yes. But. > > Q: Why do you hesitate? > A: If I condemn the attack I could make it seem like I’m justifying a collective guilt. That worries me. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/5 "2015-01-08T17:11:11Z")
How old is this family relation? That type of black-and-white thinking is common amongst small children, but an adult of even marginally average intelligence should be able to see the inherent flaw of that argument. Tell him that (I’m sure it will go over well! ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/6 "2015-01-08T17:35:29Z")
After an attack by Al Qaeda, I never see large groups of Als joining together and loudly and vocally protesting and condemning the attacks. Therefore, Al Roker, Al Pacino, Al Sharpton, and Weird Al Yankovic must approve of the atrocities, so they’re all just as bad. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/7 "2015-01-08T17:37:18Z")
Ask him how many atrocities of his in group he’s protested. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/8 "2015-01-08T17:50:28Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > How old is this family relation? That type of black-and-white thinking is common amongst small children, but an adult of even marginally average intelligence should be able to see the inherent flaw of that argument. Tell him that (I’m sure it will go over well! ;)) That may be so, but the same argument made by the OP’s relation is made by posters on this board in nearly every thread where the subject of Islamic miltants comes up. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/9 "2015-01-08T18:57:22Z")
It could simply mean that they were too busy protesting the child sex slave trade or something. People pick and chose their battles, most likely the ones that hit closest to their home and family in life and no one can protest every atrocity. So no, in no way does not protesting a atrocity equate to supporting it. Supporting the atrocity is supporting it. I believe this was shown after 9-11, several muslem communities celebrating. Now that would be a example that moslems are capable and willing to support atrocities directly, and as such, in the sense of the OPs family relation argument, one would have to conclude if Muslims want to support the atrocity they would be celebrating it. Lack of the celebration indicates there is no support for it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/10 "2015-01-08T19:34:09Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I have a family relation who loves to jump at every opportunity to attack Muslims, and his favourite criticism is that, for example, after the Paris shootings yesterday, or after the beheading of Fusillier Lee Rigby in London in 2013, he never sees large groups of Muslims joining together and loudly and vocally protesting and condemning the attacks. Therefore (his argument is), they all (or nearly all) accept, even approve of the atrocities, and so they’re all just as bad. Of course, that’s because he’s refusing to pay attention to the fact that large groups of Muslims did in fact condemn the shootings. Including such obscure groups of Muslims as Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![boffking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@boffking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boffking)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/11 "2015-01-09T00:24:56Z")
What if somebody is protesting a particular atrocity? Do you take it to mean they approve of all the other atrocities in the world? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/12 "2015-01-09T00:28:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course, that’s because he’s refusing to pay attention to the fact that large groups of Muslims did in fact condemn the shootings. Including such obscure groups of Muslims as Iran, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Do you have links? I’d love to show him. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/13 "2015-01-09T00:36:49Z")
It’s not an uncommon arguing point from all sides of the political spectrum when dealing with the latest “big bad” or Outrage of the Day. It’s not just avoiding shades of grey in asumptions. It’s bad logic. It’s a[false dilemma.](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_dilemma) I’m not sure that will help more than giving him an example though. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/14 "2015-01-09T14:00:16Z")
The Independent has touched on the same subject: [Link](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/charlie-hebdo-how-exactly-would-we-like-muslims-to-condemn-these-attacks-9966176.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/15 "2015-01-09T14:12:02Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Do you have links? I’d love to show him. That’s a dead-end to show him such articles. He’ll just say that there weren’t enough protesters there, or that they were not sincere, etc. Just ask him why he supports rape. If he says he doesn’t, ask him when the last time was that he went to an anti-rape protest. If he’s actually been to one, say that it doesn’t count because you didn’t hear about it, there were too few people there, and it was too long ago. Then say you will not associate yourself with supporters of rape, and stop talking to him. Or, you could just jump to the last step and stop talking with him. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/16 "2015-01-09T14:32:41Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Do you have links? I’d love to show him. I think he’s referring to the governments of those countries rather than mass demonstrations. See here, for example: > [@](#): > > [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas also came out against the attack, saying that he “strongly condemned and deplored the heinous crime that is in contradiction of religion and morality,” in a telegram sent to Hollande, Palestinian news agency Maan reported. > > Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, also condemned Wednesday’s shooting attack. “…The kingdom therefore strongly condemns and denounces this cowardly terrorist act that is rejected by true Islamic religion as well as the rest of the religions and beliefs,” the Saudi state news agency SPA said, citing an official source. > > Egypt’s leading Islamic authority, Al-Azhar, also condemned the attack, which killed at least 12 people including two police officers, the worst militant attack on French soil for decades.]([http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.635787](http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.635787)) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/17 "2015-01-09T15:06:37Z")
I personally don’t feel a pressing need to distance myself from opinions I do not hold or actions I didn’t take. Do you, OP ? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/18 "2015-01-09T15:08:25Z")
The OP specifically noted that he doesn’t think other Muslims should have to apologize for anything. So apparently he does feel such a need. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/19 "2015-01-09T15:14:15Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > [INTERVIEW WITH A MUSLIM](http://religiondispatches.org/interview-with-a-muslim/) Agree with this. I would be pissed too if people were expecting me to make my disaproval known loudly every time someone from some group I belong too was doing something wrong. Being a contrarian and prideful, I’d probably make a point of _not_ making such statements if I were a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312/20 "2015-01-09T15:45:55Z")
Yeah, I’m a straight white male, a group responsible for a huge of the horrible shit that has happened in history. If I were to apologize every time someone in my group did something horrible, I’d never get anything done. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-group-not-protesting-an-atrocity-endorsing-said-atrocity/709312.md?page=2)