# A gun control legislation thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276 "2016-06-13T18:50:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/281 "2016-06-17T20:26:41Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > For every reason you can give for why a civilian doesn’t need explosives, I can probably make the same argument for guns. Give it a try, might be kind of fun. Civilians don’t need explosives because they are not useful in self defense against criminals. Civilians don’t need explosives to blow open locked doors. > [@](#): > > Police also have flashing lights on their cars, and sirens. Should civilians be allowed to have that on vehicles to? > > If you need, I can probably find lots of things that police do/have/can have/can do that regular civilians can’t do/not allowed to do. Maybe I am not being clear enough. I am not saying that civilians should have everything police have. They shouldn’t be able to run license plates or have police powers or any of that. But in the context of firearms, why do the police need more than civilians. Lets agree on a few things. Police carry their weapons for self defense while carrying out their duties. They might brandish a gun during an arrest but the primary purpose of the weapon they carry is to protect themselves. Police face the same criminals that civilians do. Police might face them more frequently but there are no classes of criminals that ONLY policemen face. Police are frequently not present when a criminal commits a violent crime. They are only able to prevent most of these crimes if they coincidentally happen to be in the area or if the crime takes so long that police have a chance to show up. Police often have back-up, whereas civilians frequently do not. What is it about the situations that policemen face that justifies giving them MORE? Don’t civilians face similarly dangerous situations? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/282 "2016-06-17T20:38:48Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Civilians don’t need explosives because they are not useful in self defense against criminals. > > Civilians don’t need explosives to blow open locked doors. Grenades would be very handy if I am on the 3rd floor, and there is a criminal on the 2nd. Just toss a grenade down to get him. If I am attacked by a gang of people, I can throw a grenade into the gang in order to get away. I can use grenades in case I am attacked on a stairwell. I have a solid steel door that I lost the key too. It is built in a fashion that it can only be opened by blowing the hardened hinges off. I use this door as the entrance to my bomb shelter. I need to get the door off in order to access my bomb shelter. I need to use explosives to blow off the hinges. Hey, that was kind of fun! Got any more? > [@](#): > > Maybe I am not being clear enough. I am not saying that civilians should have everything police have. They shouldn’t be able to run license plates or have police powers or any of that. But in the context of firearms, why do the police need more than civilians. There are law enforcement personnel that have access to and use automatic weapons and sniper rifles. Do you think civilians need access to those as well? > [@](#): > > What is it about the situations that policemen face that justifies giving them MORE? Don’t civilians face similarly dangerous situations? No, civilians DON’T face similarly dangerous situations. When was the last time you breached a bank in order to stop a robbery? When was the last time you raided a drug den? When was the last time you took part in a hostage rescue situation? When was the last time you pulled over a car in the middle of the night and wrote them a speeding ticket? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/283 "2016-06-17T21:43:20Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Grenades would be very handy if I am on the 3rd floor, and there is a criminal on the 2nd. Just toss a grenade down to get him. If I am attacked by a gang of people, I can throw a grenade into the gang in order to get away. I can use grenades in case I am attacked on a stairwell. Do we give cops grenades? No then your response is silly. > [@](#): > > I have a solid steel door that I lost the key too. It is built in a fashion that it can only be opened by blowing the hardened hinges off. I use this door as the entrance to my bomb shelter. I need to get the door off in order to access my bomb shelter. I need to use explosives to blow off the hinges. Why do you need to get into your bomb shelter in such a hurry? Why can’t you call a locksmith? > [@](#): > > Hey, that was kind of fun! Got any more? Yeah if you want to be silly. Sure. > [@](#): > > There are law enforcement personnel that have access to and use automatic weapons and sniper rifles. Do you think civilians need access to those as well? I don’t think an civilian NEEDS access to machine guns. I think they should have access to them. Civilians already have access to sniper rifles. You might know them as hunting rifles. > [@](#): > > No, civilians DON’T face similarly dangerous situations. When was the last time you breached a bank in order to stop a robbery? When was the last time you raided a drug den? When was the last time you took part in a hostage rescue situation? When was the last time you pulled over a car in the middle of the night and wrote them a speeding ticket? So why do you need more firepower to do any of those things than a civilian needs to fight off a band of rioters/looters? Do you need more bullets in your magazine to kill the bank robbers? Do you need more ergonomic shoulder stocks to raid a drug den? How exactly does better firepower help you when you are pulling over a car in the middle of the night? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/284 "2016-06-17T23:31:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Do we give cops grenades? No then your response is silly. Strange, because I don’t remember you saying anything about cops or what we give them in your statement about explosives. I wish there was some way to show what your ACTUAL statement was. Oh wait, there is! > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Civilians don’t need explosives because they are not useful in self defense against criminals. Funny, I don’t see anything in that statement that mentions cops or what we give them. Do you type it in a small font or something? My eyes aren’t as good as they used to be. You quite clearly and concisely avowed that civilians don’t need explosives because they are not useful in self defense against criminals. Well they ARE useful in self-defense, for the reasons I gave. I’m sure I could come up with a few more defensive scenarios where I would like to have grenades available to me. > [@](#): > > Why do you need to get into your bomb shelter in such a hurry? Why can’t you call a locksmith? The locksmith told me the only way was to blow the hinges on the door. > [@](#): > > I don’t think an civilian NEEDS access to machine guns. I think they should have access to them. I see. So, just so I’m clear, you think civilians should be able to purchase fully automatic weapons? A simple yes or no will suffice. Any other answer will be determined by me to mean you don’t actually know what you think. > [@](#): > > How exactly does better firepower help you when you are pulling over a car in the middle of the night? And you think my questions are silly :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/285 "2016-06-18T03:54:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I see. So, just so I’m clear, you think civilians should be able to purchase fully automatic weapons? A simple yes or no will suffice. Any other answer will be determined by me to mean you don’t actually know what you think. Yes. Citizens ARE able to purchase fully automatic weapons. Due to the restrictions only rich civilians are able to afford them. Shouldn’t the middle class have the same access as the rich? ---
**Author:** ![Ru5tyShackleford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Ru5tyShackleford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ru5tyShackleford)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/286 "2016-06-18T05:02:04Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I would like to offer a compromise on assault weapons. They should be legal to use on a range, but not anywhere else. There are cars that are not street-legal, but can be driven on racetracks. I think we should take a similar approach with AR-15s and the like. What are you talking about? An AR15/10 is ergonomic and allows for better accuracy with a semi-auto magazine allowing for followup shots if the animal does not go down. But you want a ban on the non-range use of an AR-15. Okay, what is the punishment? A low level felony? Remember, the punishment cannot be unusual that is no death penalty or life imprisonment. So now you have a person intent on harm what will get what 20 years + 6 months in jail? That will REALLY stop them. ---
**Author:** ![Ru5tyShackleford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Ru5tyShackleford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ru5tyShackleford)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/287 "2016-06-18T05:28:32Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yup…that’s exactly what happened after Australia outlawed most firearms and people had to turn theirs in. > > It is like living a Mad Max movie in Australia now. Roaming bands of psychos with guns and nothing can be done to stop them because the good guys turned in their weapons! > > Oh wait…actually [gun deaths went down and so did overall homicide rates](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qi4vzkrEqwI/UbZ0dnkSjjI/AAAAAAAAGRo/0jt8-dOR0Jc/s1600/Screen+Shot+2013-06-10+at++Monday,+June+10,+8.50+PM.png) (so people didn’t just grab a knife or club in lieu of a gun to go after all the helpless unarmed people). > > The horror of it all. :rolleyes: Murder rates going down as the result of the gun ban are mixed, at best: > [@](#): > > A 2003 study from AIC, which looked at rates between 1991 and 2001, found that some of the decline in firearm-related homicides (and suicides as well) began before the reform was enacted. On the other hand, a 2006 analysis by scholars at the University of Sydney concluded that gun fatalities decreased more quickly after the reform. Yet another analysis, from 2008, from the University of Melbourne, concluded that the buyback had no significant effect on firearm suicide or homicide rates. > So there’s no consensus about whether the changes decreased gun violence or had little to no effect. Link: > **[Gun Control in Australia - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/gun-control-in-australia/)** > > Q: Did gun control in Australia lead to more murders there last year? A: This ‘Gun History Lesson’ is recycled bunk from a decade ago. Murders in Australia actually are down to record lows. FULL QUESTION Is this true?? A little Gun History Lesson In... > [@](#): > > As to suicide, you will only be able to prevent 8% of the total firearm suicides:In the case of firearm suicides, however, the estimated > 95% confidence intervals show that a buyback of 3,500 guns per 100,000 > people would have reduced firearm suicides by a minimum percentage > decline of 8% The Study: Do Gun Buybacks Save Lives? Evidence from Panel Data So you have a questionable decrease in homicides and a 8% decrease in suicide. Yet, this leaves the average citizen with a less than optimal defense weapon in a violent situation. In the US, the government documented about 50K firearm defenses per year. ---
**Author:** ![Ru5tyShackleford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Ru5tyShackleford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ru5tyShackleford)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/288 "2016-06-18T05:32:26Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Is there any “gun news of the day” where the limitation of only 10 rounds in a magazine affected somebody negatively? > > Do all the criminals have greater than 10 round magazines, while lawful citizens only have the legal 10 round magazines? > > I’m asking because it seems like this could be good data during a debate about magazine size limits. Your magazine laws will do very little. Most of these high profile shootings a planned so the shooter will just 3D print theirs. The average criminal only fires 3-5 shots before fleeing. ---
**Author:** ![Ru5tyShackleford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Ru5tyShackleford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ru5tyShackleford)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/289 "2016-06-18T05:39:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Your “reasonable common-sense” gun control measures are almost certainly different than mine and I have never seen your side ever push anything like a “reasonable common-sense” gun control measure of any sort. > > How about we start with if you are on the “no-fly” list then you cannot buy a gun and have to turn in the ones you already have. Surely if you are deemed too dangerous to fly on a plane then you should not be trusted with guns. The only problem is the 5th Amendment and the 14th for gun owners that make it on the list: > [@](#): > > No person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without **due process of law** > [@](#): > > nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/291 "2016-06-18T12:58:17Z")
> [@Ru5tyShackleford](#): > > So now you have a person intent on harm what will get what 20 years + 6 months in jail? > > That will REALLY stop them. Just make semi-auto weapons illegal for the public to purchase (the military will have them of course…perhaps the police). That will cause the cost of such weapons to rise dramatically. Want to know what will stop most criminals? When a semi-auto gun costs $15,000 or more (which is where the [cost sits in Australia since their gun ban](http://www.ibtimes.com.au/cost-illegal-firearms-australia-has-skyrocketed-criminals-now-do-gun-sharing-1378871)). The cost of an AR-15 I have heard can be $30,000 (no cite for that…just a memory so take with a grain of salt). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/294 "2016-06-18T13:05:28Z")
> [@Ru5tyShackleford](#): > > Murder rates going down as the result of the gun ban are mixed, at best: > > Link: > [Gun Control in Australia - FactCheck.org](http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/gun-control-in-australia/) > > The Study: > Do Gun Buybacks Save Lives? Evidence from Panel Data > > So you have a questionable decrease in homicides and a 8% decrease in suicide. Yet, this leaves the average citizen with a less than optimal defense weapon in a violent situation. > > In the US, the government documented about 50K firearm defenses per year. The point is gun advocates insist banning guns just leaves guns with the criminals who will then have a field day running amok among unarmed citizens. Clearly that has not happened. And the gun defense number you cite is dubious at best: > [@](#): > > In 2012, across the nation there were only 259 justifiable homicides1 involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s > Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program as detailed in its Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR).2 That same year, there were 8,342 criminal gun homicides tallied > in the SHR. In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides.3 And this ratio, of course, does not take into > account the tens of thousands of lives ended in gun suicides or unintentional shootings that year.4 > > \ > > Hemenway notes, and numerous others agree, that the most accurate survey of self-defense gun use is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) conducted > by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. The survey has been ongoing since 1973.10 > > According to the NCVS, looking at the total number of self-protective behaviors undertaken by victims of both attempted and completed violent crime for the fiveyear > period 2007 through 2011, in only 0.8 percent of these instances had the intended victim in resistance to a criminal “threatened or attacked with a firearm.”11 As > detailed in the chart on the next page, for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the NCVS estimates that there were 29,618,300 victims of attempted or completed > violent crime. During this same five-year period, only 235,700 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm > was used or whether it was fired or not. The number may also include off-duty law enforcement officers who use their firearms in self-defense. > > SOURCE: [Firearm Justifiable Homicides and Non-Fatal Self-Defense Gun Use](http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf) (PDF) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/295 "2016-06-18T13:18:32Z")
> [@Ru5tyShackleford](#): > > The only problem is the 5th Amendment and the 14th for gun owners that make it on the list: I agree. Which is why I consider banning people on the no-fly list from purchasing guns to be a win-win. It is mystifying that a citizen can be put on the list with no recourse whatsoever. If we made the very reasonable move to disallow people from buying guns who the government deems too dangerous to be allowed to fly we would force such a ban into the courts where the ban could be reviewed. ---
**Author:** ![Ru5tyShackleford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Ru5tyShackleford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ru5tyShackleford)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/296 "2016-06-18T18:33:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The point is gun advocates insist banning guns just leaves guns with the criminals who will then have a field day running amok among unarmed citizens. > > Clearly that has not happened. > > And the gun defense number you cite is dubious at best: From you own data: **Hemenway notes, and numerous others agree, that the most accurate survey of self-defense gun use is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) conducted by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.** \*\* During this same five-year period, only 235,700 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. \*\* 235,700 / 5 years = Close to 48,000 defensive gun uses per year. By they way, now these citizens have one less and very effective tool for defense. Yet, your crime rates have not gone done significantly due to gun bans. ---
**Author:** ![Ru5tyShackleford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Ru5tyShackleford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ru5tyShackleford)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/297 "2016-06-18T18:38:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Just make semi-auto weapons illegal for the public to purchase (the military will have them of course…perhaps the police). > > That will cause the cost of such weapons to rise dramatically. > > Want to know what will stop most criminals? When a semi-auto gun costs $15,000 or more (which is where the [cost sits in Australia since their gun ban](http://www.ibtimes.com.au/cost-illegal-firearms-australia-has-skyrocketed-criminals-now-do-gun-sharing-1378871)). The cost of an AR-15 I have heard can be $30,000 (no cite for that…just a memory so take with a grain of salt). Useless for most crimes and murders. Most of these incidents just use 3-5 shots which is the capacity for most revolvers. On a mass murder front it may work but a law to ban all semi-auto firearms will never make it past congress. Think it’s difficult getting an AWB? What you want is near impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/298 "2016-06-19T03:13:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Strange, because I don’t remember you saying anything about cops or what we give them in your statement about explosives. I wish there was some way to show what your ACTUAL statement was. Oh wait, there is! > > Funny, I don’t see anything in that statement that mentions cops or what we give them. Do you type it in a small font or something? My eyes aren’t as good as they used to be. You quite clearly and concisely avowed that civilians don’t need explosives because they are not useful in self defense against criminals. Well they ARE useful in self-defense, for the reasons I gave. I’m sure I could come up with a few more defensive scenarios where I would like to have grenades available to me. Then why the fuck don’t we give them to cops? Or did you think I was saying that there are no limits whatsoever in what I could use for self defense. But you’re right, grenades can be useful in self defense. So can nuclear weapons. > [@](#): > > The locksmith told me the only way was to blow the hinges on the door. Get a better locksmith and then tell me why you need to open it in such a hurry? > [@](#): > > I see. So, just so I’m clear, you think civilians should be able to purchase fully automatic weapons? A simple yes or no will suffice. Any other answer will be determined by me to mean you don’t actually know what you think. I thought I was clearly saying yes. Did I stutter? > [@](#): > > And you think my questions are silly :rolleyes: please explain it to me. use small words. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/299 "2016-06-19T03:19:14Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Yeah but a revolver needs to be reloaded after six (or so) shots. How many rounds does a lever action rifle hold before needing to be reloaded? Shotgun? Its not the number of shots between reloads. its how long the reloading takes. reloading a pump action shotgun (and level action (or bolt action) rifle takes about one second per shot if you’re fast Reloading all 6 chambers in a revolver takes one second if you are fast. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/300 "2016-06-19T03:25:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Just make semi-auto weapons illegal for the public to purchase (the military will have them of course…perhaps the police). > > That will cause the cost of such weapons to rise dramatically. > > Want to know what will stop most criminals? When a semi-auto gun costs $15,000 or more (which is where the [cost sits in Australia since their gun ban](http://www.ibtimes.com.au/cost-illegal-firearms-australia-has-skyrocketed-criminals-now-do-gun-sharing-1378871)). The cost of an AR-15 I have heard can be $30,000 (no cite for that…just a memory so take with a grain of salt). I have not read this before. I would have thought it would have taken a lot more than a couple of decades to reduce the stock of guns in criminal hands. Is there more detailed information on this phenomenon? I find it hard to believe that a handgun will sell for $30K when a pump action shotgun only costs a few hundred dollars. Saw off the stock and the barrel and you’ve got a fairly easily concealable weapon. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/301 "2016-06-20T20:33:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Then why the fuck don’t we give them to cops? I don’t know why we don’t give them to cops. Maybe because if we did, certain people would clamor for THEIR right to grenades simply because the cops have them. > [@](#): > > But you’re right, grenades can be useful in self defense. So can nuclear weapons. If grenades can be useful in self defense, then why are you not a strong proponent of allowing grenades for sale to the public for self defense? Or nuclear weapons for that matter? Why do you limit your choices of self-defense weaponry to only guns? > [@](#): > > Get a better locksmith and then tell me why you need to open it in such a hurry? A small kitten got into the room and accidently set off the “close because bad shit is going on” device, and the door closed. The locksmith consulted with premier locksmiths in the county, state, and the nation and determined the only way to open it from the outside was to blow the hinges. And the kitten didn’t turn on the air filtration/circulation system, so no new air is getting in. Why do you hate kittens!??! > [@](#): > > I thought I was clearly saying yes. Did I stutter? Thank you for your honest and clear answer. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/302 "2016-06-20T20:35:08Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Yes. Citizens ARE able to purchase fully automatic weapons. Due to the restrictions only rich civilians are able to afford them. Shouldn’t the middle class have the same access as the rich? Well, my question was SHOULD they be able to purchase fully automatic weapons, not ARE they able to. The middle class doesn’t have access to a lot of things the rich have access to. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/303 "2016-06-20T21:37:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t know why we don’t give them to cops. Maybe because if we did, certain people would clamor for THEIR right to grenades simply because the cops have them. I realize that this is just a silly attempt at humor but I didn’t say at any time that ANYTHING useful for self defense should be available to civilians. I said that anything available to police for self defense should be available to civilians for self defense. But for the record, I will concede that you can defend yourself with explosives and nuclear weapons. With a lot of potential collateral damage but bullets can have collateral damage too so… > [@](#): > > If grenades can be useful in self defense, then why are you not a strong proponent of allowing grenades for sale to the public for self defense? Or nuclear weapons for that matter? Why do you limit your choices of self-defense weaponry to only guns? If we are comfortable restricting their use from cops, I am comfortable restricting their use from civilians. I will just have to scrape by without nuclear weapons. You want there to be MORE restrictions on civilians than the police. You pointed out that the police use explosives from time to time to blow open doors so why don’t we let civilians use explosives like grenades. But if police can’t use grenades (or nuclear weapons) for self defense then I am comfortable withholding their use from civilians. > [@](#): > > A small kitten got into the room and accidently set off the “close because bad shit is going on” device, and the door closed. The locksmith consulted with premier locksmiths in the county, state, and the nation and determined the only way to open it from the outside was to blow the hinges. And the kitten didn’t turn on the air filtration/circulation system, so no new air is getting in. Why do you hate kittens!??! There is plenty of air in there. Probably enough to last the kitten several days. That will give it time to think about what it has done and to really drive the lesson home, we suffocate her. Many centuries from now, aliens come upon our dead civilization and find the solid steel door that can only be opened with explosives and they will detonate it open and find that dead cat inside. That combined with the only preserved video evidence of our civilization to survive the ravages of time (in the youtube data center) and the aliens will come to the conclusion that we worshipped kitten and buried their remains behind unopenable steel doors. > [@](#): > > Thank you for your honest and clear answer. No problem. I think this is the one area of gun control where I am more gun nuttish than many of the other posters who are much more gun nutty than me in most other respects. I wouldn’t object to a higher licensing standard for them but I support private ownership of select fire weapons. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276.md?page=16)