# A gun control legislation thread! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2016, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276 "2016-06-13T18:50:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/21 "2016-06-13T21:12:40Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > To purchase a new firearm: Show current hunting license, and game tag(s), get favorable response to the already-existing & annoying 20 minute FBI check, buy appropriate firearm, pay registration fee. > > (Who got offensive? Me? How?) You see the part where you talk about shooting first graders? A lot of people took offense at the gun control folks basically blaming gun owners for Sandy Hook. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/22 "2016-06-13T21:14:41Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > How about everything that fits the definition? Wiki has a pretty extensive article on it From the Wiki on “assault weapons” then: > [@](#): > > The definition varies among regulating jurisdictions, but usually includes semi-automatic firearms with a detachable magazine and a pistol grip, and sometimes other features such as a flash suppressor or barrel shroud. Some firearms are specified by name. At the time that the now-defunct Federal Assault Weapons Ban passed in 1994, the U.S. Justice Department said, “In general, assault weapons are semiautomatic firearms with a large magazine of ammunition that were designed and configured for rapid fire and combat use.” ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/23 "2016-06-13T21:15:35Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I would like to offer a compromise on assault weapons. They should be legal to use on a range, but not anywhere else. There are cars that are not street-legal, but can be driven on racetracks. I think we should take a similar approach with AR-15s and the like. How about a compromise on gay sex? You are allowed to have it in your own home with the doors locked, but no kissing in public or marriage. What? I am trying to be reasonable here, and you are just being absolutist about it! I am joking, but that is what each of these “reasonable compromise” gun control measures are about. They are not reasonable and they are only a compromise in the sense that it is better than an absolute ban, which your side consistently states it does not support (so why do we begin the negotiation on that point?). Anyways, under your proposal, I can own an AR-15 and keep it at home but only use it on the range? Or can I only keep and store it at the range? I live in a rural area where there are no rifle ranges. Our ranges consist of going to a buddy’s field and putting up targets at a distance. Will that count as a “range” under the new law? Does he need some sort of permit to call his field a “range”? What permit does he need? May he then buy AR-15s? What if it turns out that my buddy/other certified range owner is deranged and shoots up a school or nightclub? Will we then close the “range loophole”? IOW, even if I agreed in principle with your limitations (which I don’t) what assurances do I have that this is not simply an incremental step to banning all AR-15s? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/24 "2016-06-13T21:19:39Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > I would like to offer a compromise on assault weapons. They should be legal to use on a range, but not anywhere else. There are cars that are not street-legal, but can be driven on racetracks. I think we should take a similar approach with AR-15s and the like. So I can own and carry an AR-15 but I can only use it on a range? What if I set up a range on my own 500 acre property? What if I own a ranch and want to protect myself and my herd from wolves? What if I prefer hunting with the ergonomic features that come with an AR-15? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/25 "2016-06-13T21:37:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From the Wiki on “assault weapons” then: Yup. Last time I debated about this specific thing, I focused mainly on the “useless” features that would make such a weapon a good tool for mass killing and an overkill one for defense. Rapid firing capabilities and large magazines are two things I’d like to see private citizens banned from owning, because you don’t fucking use those things except for killing a lot of things really quickly. Unless ninjas are attacking you, you can use a regular gun Other extraneous stuff like bayonet attachments or barrel-coolers I’m less strict on, but people tend to nitpick to try and worm some things past loopholes, so my answer would be an unsatisfying “it depends” ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/26 "2016-06-13T21:38:22Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Because we just never talk about it here. 🙂 > > Shoot some holes in this for me, if you please. Specifically, what makes the following untenable, and what alterations would you make (And no, “Scrap it you gun-snatching commie bastard!” isn’t acceptable without considerable elaboration, cites, and rationale). How about this instead: > [@](#): > > Elimination of ALL state and local regulation of guns forever (no state or locality can ever pass a law regulating guns or anything associated with guns). > > Repeal of all other federal gun laws. > > Federal issuance of carry permits good in all 50 states and the territories on a “shall issue” basis to anyone that is not a prohibited person (using current definition. > > Licensing requirement to own a gun (we mail every citizen that is eligible to own a gun a license in the mail, they can have a notation made on their driver’s license the next time they renew their driver’s license so that they don’t have to carry around the license). > > Registration requirement for all guns. Strict penalties for misusing the information. HIPAA type penalties for sharing the information. > > Sale of used M-16s and other modern military weapons etc. through the civilian marksmanship program. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/27 "2016-06-13T21:42:20Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Yup. Last time I debated about this specific thing, I focused mainly on the “useless” features that would make such a weapon a good tool for mass killing and an overkill one for defense. Rapid firing capabilities and large magazines are two things I’d like to see private citizens banned from owning, because you don’t fucking use those things except for killing a lot of things really quickly. Unless ninjas are attacking you, you can use a regular gun What is "rapid firing capability A semi-automatic pistol is no faster than a revolver. What is a large magazine? Where is the dividing line between large and medium? Don’t get me wrong. I can be convinced to accept a limit on magazine size but you would have to make an argument that displays more knowledge about guns than invoking ninjas. > [@](#): > > Other extraneous stuff like bayonet attachments or barrel-coolers I’m less strict on, but people tend to nitpick to try and worm some things past loopholes, so my answer would be an unsatisfying “it depends” Can we apply the same sort of “it depends” criteria to abortions? Free speech? Search and seizure? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/28 "2016-06-13T21:47:12Z")
Can we talk about one topic at a time? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/29 "2016-06-13T21:52:21Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Don’t get me wrong. I can be convinced to accept a limit on magazine size but you would have to make an argument that displays more knowledge about guns than invoking ninjas. What upper limit for magazine size wouldn’t you argue much with? ---
**Author:** ![akennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@akennett](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akennett)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/30 "2016-06-13T22:04:53Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What upper limit for magazine size wouldn’t you argue much with? That would, at least for me, depend entirely on what type of firearm we’re talking about and what purpose it is being owned/used for. Which is one of the reasons that such a regulation is rather stupid – any number you come up with is likely to be purely arbitrary and without any real merit. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/31 "2016-06-13T22:13:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The discourse would not change one iota. If you don’t believe me, open up a new thread with just that proposal and the arguments you think are credible that support it, and see if the discourse is any better. Didn’t bother to read all the way through the last sentence Did you? No, it _probably_ wouldn’t wouldn’t work any better. So clearly, the only possible alternative is to continue the ignorant and dishonest arguments that have failed for decades. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/32 "2016-06-13T22:25:34Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What is "rapid firing capability > > A semi-automatic pistol is no faster than a revolver. Anything where if you hold down the trigger, the gun fires automatically for you. Should be one pull, one shot, no exceptions. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What is a large magazine? Where is the dividing line between large and medium? Anything over 10 is large. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Don’t get me wrong. I can be convinced to accept a limit on magazine size but you would have to make an argument that displays more knowledge about guns than invoking ninjas. Ninjas are funny, and they are used due to the stereotypical mass attack of a bunch of them typical in older martial arts movies. Pretending that I was serious when referring to ninajs just makes you pedantic. Take the argument’s purpose at face value and don’t think too much about actual Japanese martial artists. My question to you is, if you can be convinced to accept a limit, why haven’t you done so already? What purpose does it serve for you to wait around for someone to tell you a good reason when you’re perfectly capable of reasoning out a limit. To me, that’s the kind of argument someone makes when they know they won’t be convinced: it makes them sound open-minded when they really aren’t. If I fail to convince it, it will be “my fault”, not because you’re close-minded > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Can we apply the same sort of “it depends” criteria to abortions? Free speech? Search and seizure? Sure, make your own topic and maybe I’ll go there ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/33 "2016-06-13T22:29:46Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Anything where if you hold down the trigger, the gun fires automatically for you. Should be one pull, one shot, no exceptions. Well then, right there you go. None of the shootings that I can think of as far back as I remember were accomplished with fully automatic weapons. The AR-15 and the other assault rifles associated with mass shootings are all one trigger pull, one shot. And that right there is why I am concerned about all the talk about banning assault rifles. It’s like the TSA telling us to put our shampoo in a ziplock baggie. Looks like they’re doing something while accomplishing nothing. The things that make an assault rifle canonically an assault rifle make it no more or less deadly than any other kind of gun. They just look ‘mean’ in the eyes of the public. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/34 "2016-06-13T22:33:49Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Well then, right there you go. None of the shootings that I can think of as far back as I remember were accomplished with fully automatic weapons. The AR-15 and the other assault rifles associated with mass shootings are all one trigger pull, one shot. Please be sure to include the rest of the criteria I put in my post instead of trying for, and hilariously failing, the easy “gotcha”. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/35 "2016-06-13T22:34:29Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Because we just never talk about it here. 🙂 > > Shoot some holes in this for me, if you please. Specifically, what makes the following untenable, and what alterations would you make (And no, “Scrap it you gun-snatching commie bastard!” isn’t acceptable without considerable elaboration, cites, and rationale). This proposal is colossally bad. The 2nd amendment’s core protection isn’t about duck hunting, or any hunting for that matter. I can’t tell what you mean by “open market” and your post #3 is not informative at all. But you asked for specifics: [ol] [li] **No new open-market weapon sales** [/li]Unconstitutional. The right to purchase firearms is coextensive with the right to own firearms. [li] **No more open-market ammo/ammunition-loading sales** [/li]Unconstitutional. The right to purchase ammunition is coextensive with the right to own firearms. [li] **Hunting & support weapons available to buyers only with a current hunting license** [/li]The 2nd amendment’s core protection isn’t about hunting. [li]**10(?) rounds of ammo per animal tag, rationed purchase**[/li]The 2nd amendment’s core protection isn’t about hunting. [li] **On-site use only, unlimited ammunition purchases at ranges** [/li]The 2nd amendment’s core protection covers self defense at home. On site use only is unconstitutional. [li] **Any ammunition/loading purchase must match a weapon registered to the buyer** [/li]Loading supplies are not weapon or caliber specific. [li] **Mandatory weapon registration, but at no/nominal cost. Or maybe substantial, with a grandfather clause eliminating the fee for all weapons** registered within 12 months of legislation.[/li]Probably not unconstitutional - but politically not possible at this time. [li] **Ongoing voluntary buyback program** [/li]FFLs will set up shop right outside of the buybacks picking the best guns and offering slightly more than the buyback price. Arbitrage. [/ol] > [@YogSothoth](#): > > Anything where if you hold down the trigger, the gun fires automatically for you. Should be one pull, one shot, no exceptions. Remember when you expressed [surprise that bullets could ricochet off of water?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19395045&postcount=56) At that time I mentioned to you that you should keep in mind this fundamental ignorance before making statements about firearms. Well, here is another example. Full auto weapons like you describe are incredibly rare. AR-15 rifles and all semi auto rifles and all semi auto pistols are one pull, one shot. > [@YogSothoth](#): > > Anything over 10 is large. No. Most firearms will come with a magazine when you purchase new. The magazine included is the standard for the type of firearm that is purchased. For some firearms, an 8 round magazine may be standard. For some, a 30 round magazine may be standard. Saying anything over 10 is large is an insult to the English language. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/36 "2016-06-13T22:40:17Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > Well then, right there you go. None of the shootings that I can think of as far back as I remember were accomplished with fully automatic weapons. The AR-15 and the other assault rifles associated with mass shootings are all one trigger pull, one shot. It’s an epidemic! There have been about two murders committed in the entire country with legal FA weapons. Since 1934. > [@YogSothoth](#): > > Please be sure to include the rest of the criteria I put in my post instead of trying for, and hilariously failing, the easy “gotcha”. Thanks. He quoted the entire part of your post germane to your definition of “rapid fire,” and addressed only that part of your post. As stated these weapons are **highly** regulated and **very expensive** if you can actually buy one. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/37 "2016-06-13T22:42:01Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Please be sure to include the rest of the criteria I put in my post instead of trying for, and hilariously failing, the easy “gotcha”. Thanks. I’m not trying to argue every single one of your criteria. I’m pointing out that you are wrong about the types of guns used in these attacks and wrong about what constitutes an assault rifle as available to the general public today. No more and no less. Automatic weapons, ones that “where if you hold down the trigger, the gun fires automatically for you” are not available to the public except in a vanishingly small set of circumstances. I’m all for more rigorous gun control. But arguing for a ban on a feature that doesn’t exist is not a good starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/38 "2016-06-13T22:54:03Z")
There are _many_ of us who already own dozens of “assault weapons” and have over 30K rounds of .223 and/or 7.62 in the basement. So what’s your plan for _ **us** _? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/39 "2016-06-13T23:00:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What upper limit for magazine size wouldn’t you argue much with? Whatever limits they are willing to put on police and the common foot soldier. If police or military feel they need 30 rounds in their AR-15s and 17 rounds in their handguns when they run into bad guys why do I need less just because I am less likely to run into those bad guys? I take this attitude with most things related to the regulation of guns. If the police and common foot soldier can’t have it then I can see not letting me have it either. Heck I would be OK with smart gun requirements as soon as they implement them in the military and police forces across the country. But, if its not reliable enough for our police why should I consider it reliable enough for me? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276/40 "2016-06-13T23:02:06Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > There are _many_ of us who already own dozens of “assault weapons” and have over 30K rounds of .223 and/or 7.62 in the basement. So what’s your plan for _ **us** _? :dubious: Public ridicule? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-gun-control-legislation-thread/757276.md?page=3)