# A heavenly conundrum. . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 9, 2006, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068 "2006-06-09T15:26:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![furnishesq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/977dab/32.png) [@furnishesq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furnishesq)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/21 "2006-06-10T00:08:54Z")
> [@Thudlow Boink](#): > > Is it possible for a truly good person and a truly evil person to love one another (not just be infatuated or unhealthily attached to one another)? From the point of view of the good person, what is there in the evil person to love? And is an evil person capable of loving? > > If they did love one another, would such love motivate Evil Person to become good (if that were possible) in order to be with Good Person (or vice versa)? Well, in terms of heaven and hell concepts, all “evil” is not equal – if we use the Dante’ version of hell. (Not every “evil” rises to the level of, let’s say Hitler, but could still land you in Hell) Thus Person A lives a good life and then dies and goes to heaven. Person B is so distraught about A’s death that they commit suicide. Many believe suicide is a “go to hell” offense. Is Person A then to be doomed to a sad existence in heaven due to B’s suicide, which landed B in hell? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/22 "2006-06-10T00:29:14Z")
> [@furnishesq](#): > > Thus Person A lives a good life and then dies and goes to heaven. Person B is so distraught about A’s death that they commit suicide. Many believe suicide is a “go to hell” offense. > > Is Person A then to be doomed to a sad existence in heaven due to B’s suicide, which landed B in hell? Why not ? A God who’d send you to eternal torture for suicide obviously isn’t interested in justice or compassion. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/23 "2006-06-10T02:04:27Z")
You might like to read C. S. Lewis’ short story/novel/book thing, _The great divorce_, for one take on this problem. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/24 "2006-06-10T15:23:40Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > You might like to read C. S. Lewis’ short story/novel/book thing, _The great divorce_, for one take on this problem. Ditto… but to add my own two cents- IF the case presented by the OP is valid (a big IF, IMO) - the Blessed Souls will have perfect insight into the Mind of God as much as a Blessed Soul might have loved a now-Damned Soul in mortal life, God loved that Damned Soul even more the Blessed Soul will know & understand why the other Soul is now Damned before God. I totally & absolutely disagree with the idea of a Heavenly Mindwipe. As Ayn Rand had John Galt say of ‘Galt’s Gulch’- “No one stays here by faking reality… in any way, whatsoever.” The Blessed Souls will retain all memories, as painful as they now seem, because in that Heavenly State, the Blessed Souls will also know how the sufferings of mortal life wove together to be redeemed in the Divine Plan. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/25 "2006-06-10T15:36:51Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > the Blessed Souls will have perfect insight into the Mind of God > > as much as a Blessed Soul might have loved a now-Damned Soul in mortal life, God loved that Damned Soul even more > > the Blessed Soul will know & understand why the other Soul is now Damned before God. To be blunt, that’s just silly. _No one_ who felt love or even mild compassion would _ever_ damn someone for any reason; no mere finite mortal can ever do anything that deserves inifinite punishment. > [@FriarTed](#): > > The Blessed Souls will retain all memories, as painful as they now seem, because in that Heavenly State, the Blessed Souls will also know how the sufferings of mortal life wove together to be redeemed in the Divine Plan. Suffering cannot be redeemed. You also assume that the “Blessed Souls” will _care_ why they suffered; I sure wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kozmik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/8dc957/32.png) [@Kozmik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kozmik)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/26 "2006-06-10T16:26:06Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The “solution” I’ve heard is that essentially person A forgets all about person B. That doesn’t strike me as very heavenly, but what do I know? Ignorance is bliss. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/27 "2006-06-10T17:49:45Z")
If, as Jean-Paul Sartre wrote, “Hell is other people”, it follows that Heaven is the lack of them. So there we have it. You and God up in Heaven sitting and staring at each other for eternity (kinda like the end of John Carpenter’s _The Thing_, although God probably won’t erupt at any moment into a mess of slavering mouths, groping tentacles and vicious claws. (I’m not altogether sure of Catholic doctrine here, so I could well be wrong on that.) ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/28 "2006-06-10T19:54:29Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > My understanding of Christian belief on this question is that in heaven the source of joy is communion with God, not a continuation or resumption of earthly relationships. Being in our intended eternal relationship with God will be sufficient for our happiness. To add on this with my understanding the Person A will feel what they felt for Person B for everyone who is in heaven, and God but to such a greater degree that the strongest feeling Person A had towards Person B is less then the weekest feelings Person A has torwards their heavenly companions. Also the truths of the universe will be known, the uglyiness of sin will be clearly visable and Person A will be disgusted at the sins that he/she did while on earth and greatful that they have been cleansed. Looking at people who are still in a state of sin will be hard to do, sin will be very ugly and Person A (cleansed) will really see person B as they really are, a abomination - no feelings to this person will remain. My humble O ---
**Author:** ![volvelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e0b2c6/32.png) [@volvelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/volvelle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/29 "2006-06-10T20:23:23Z")
> [@Talking Heads](#): > > _Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens_. Of course, in Christian doctrine, one doesn’t have to be evil to be sent to hell. They merely have to not be Christians. I suppose this is why they tell believers not to marry outside of their faith. And yeah, I wouldn’t be happy without the person I love. I fail to see how ther could be some form of “greater” love that includes not caring about the suffering of those you loved before. ---
**Author:** ![volvelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e0b2c6/32.png) [@volvelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/volvelle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/30 "2006-06-10T20:28:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Also the truths of the universe will be known, the uglyiness of sin will be clearly visable and Person A will be disgusted at the sins that he/she did while on earth and greatful that they have been cleansed. Looking at people who are still in a state of sin will be hard to do, sin will be very ugly and Person A (cleansed) will really see person B as they really are, a abomination - no feelings to this person will remain. > > My humble O So that whole “hate the sin, love the sinner” thing I keep hearing about is a big farce, then? That seems accurate. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/31 "2006-06-10T21:15:29Z")
> [@volvelle](#): > > So that whole “hate the sin, love the sinner” thing I keep hearing about is a big farce, then? Is the ‘hate the sin, love the sinner’ in the Bible? I take it more as thou w/ no sin cast the first stone. When we are in a state of sin we are all ugly, all unworthy of entering the kingdom of God - if we are equally ugly it’s not a big deal. Remember that the Father turned away from His Son when Jesus took on the sins of the world, God Himself didn’t even want to look at sin. ---
**Author:** ![volvelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e0b2c6/32.png) [@volvelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/volvelle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/32 "2006-06-10T21:28:15Z")
Is your explanation in the Bible? I don’t remember there being a lot of discussion as to what heaven was like or how it operated (save for the flying, multi-eyed beasties). ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/33 "2006-06-10T21:43:23Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Yep, the rest of eternity praising the Lord your God. > > That’s eternity. > > For ever. And ever. > > And ever. > > Praising Him. > > All the time. For all time. > > (Whew. This is Heaven we’re talking about, isn’t it, and not the Other Place?) Scrawled on the walls of Heaven: HELL WAS MORE FUN. _–Dawn: Lucifer’s Halo_ Heaven can be seen as sort of the lesser of two hells. You get to play into the grandiosity of the religion’s head, instead of shuffling painfully through a relatively lawless land where your fellow hell-denizens can treat you like a kitten treats a bug. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/34 "2006-06-10T21:49:09Z")
> [@volvelle](#): > > Is your explanation in the Bible? I don’t remember there being a lot of discussion as to what heaven was like or how it operated (save for the flying, multi-eyed beasties). The parts about sins on earth are to my understanding, including the ‘thou w/o sin cast the first stone’, and Jesus’ words ‘Father, why have you forsakest me’, though these are not exact quotes. Also I beleive the hate the sin love the sinner is a interpertation of how we are suppose to treat our fellow man hear on earth - and that is taken from thou w/o sin cast the first stone, among other things. There is some mention of heaven ‘Mansion with many rooms’ and the like, plus the Garden of Eden may have been part of the Kingdom of God as described, it still may exist as stated though since we are not worthy to enter it we have lost our ability to see it over the generations (a theory I have). As to the love that is greater then man is capable of, I can’t think of a passage that supports that, but it is what I need to put in to make the Bible work at my current understanding of it. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/35 "2006-06-10T21:49:20Z")
> [@volvelle](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Talking Heads > > Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens. Or Simply Red, as the case may be. ---
**Author:** ![volvelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e0b2c6/32.png) [@volvelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/volvelle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/36 "2006-06-10T21:50:16Z")
I, for one, welcome our impending oblivion. ---
**Author:** ![volvelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e0b2c6/32.png) [@volvelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/volvelle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/37 "2006-06-10T22:02:22Z")
Simply Red covered that? _There is no God_. ---
**Author:** ![volvelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e0b2c6/32.png) [@volvelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/volvelle)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2006, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/38 "2006-06-10T22:05:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The parts about sins on earth are to my understanding, including the ‘thou w/o sin cast the first stone’, All of a sudden, I’m reading the lesson of that story in an entirely new way. It’s not, “have compassion, we’ve all done some bad things.” It’s, “Self-righteous? Here, let me help you pick out some rocks.” ---
**Author:** ![Othersider](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/cab0a1/32.png) [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2006, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/39 "2006-06-11T09:57:37Z")
> [@volvelle](#): > > Of course, in Christian doctrine, one doesn’t have to be evil to be sent to hell. They merely have to not be Christians. I suppose this is why they tell believers not to marry outside of their faith. I know Christians that don’t believe anyone’s being sent to hell. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2006, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068/40 "2006-06-11T11:27:51Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Sooo, heaven consists of mindwipe and being reduced to a grinning vegetable ? I don’t remember when I’ve laughed so hard. Thanks for that! 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-heavenly-conundrum/360068.md?page=3)