# A hen to to chicken as ?? is to crow **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 13, 2011, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518 "2011-10-13T10:43:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/21 "2011-10-13T16:47:48Z")
None of these online sites mention anything about a raven being a female crow > **[raven](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/raven)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of raven by The Free Dictionary > **[Definition of RAVEN](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/raven)** > > a large, glossy-black bird (Corvus corax) that is widely distributed in northern parts of the northern hemisphere but now rare in most areas of the eastern and central U.S. and that differs from the closely related common crow chiefly in its larger... > **[Raven Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/raven)** > > Raven definition, any of several large, corvine birds having lustrous, black plumage and a loud, harsh call, especially the common raven ,Corvus corax, of both the New World and the Old World. See more. > **[Raven Definition & Meaning | YourDictionary](https://www.yourdictionary.com/raven)** > > Raven definition: A large bird \(Corvus corax)\ of the Northern Hemisphere, having black plumage and a croaking cry. [http://dictionary.babylon.com/raven/](http://dictionary.babylon.com/raven/) This Cornell University site - [FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ABOUT CROWS](http://www.birds.cornell.edu/crows/crowfaq.htm) - and this site by the American Society of Crows and Ravens - [http://www.ascaronline.org/crowfaq.htm](http://www.ascaronline.org/crowfaq.htm) - both answer the question “What is the difference between a crow and a raven?” without any mention of a raven being a female crow. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/22 "2011-10-13T17:07:43Z")
I was at an overlook at Canyon de Chelly National Monument; fantastic view with lots of turkey vultures riding the updrafts. A woman standing next to me turned to her friend and said “Quoth the raven, nevermore…” I said, “Oh, those are vultures, not ravens.” This set her off for some reason and she said “No, in the southwest, they are called ravens in the Native American culture. Where did you get your information?” I didn’t bother getting into it with her. The next morning we took a canyon tour and I asked our (Native American) guide, pointing out a vulture, “Do you call those birds ravens?” He looked at me like I was crazy and said, “No, those are vultures.” ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/23 "2011-10-13T17:25:15Z")
If _raven_ is the female of a crow, why isn’t the noun feminine ? “I saw a raven this morning. She was perching on a rock”. Does it sound right ? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/24 "2011-10-13T17:34:40Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > If _raven_ is the female of a crow, why isn’t the noun feminine ? > > “I saw a raven this morning. She was perching on a rock”. Does it sound right ? Does “he” sound any better in that sentence? I’d just use “it.” ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/25 "2011-10-13T17:48:56Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > As I general rule in ornithology, a male bird is referred to as a cock and a female as a hen, so this is correct. The exceptions are mainly domesticated species (drake/duck, gander/goose) and species used in falconry (a male falcon is a tercel or tiercel). There are no specific terms for male and female crows (or ravens) that I have ever heard of (and I’m a professional ornithologist). This is, however, such general knowledge that it may be difficult to find a specific cite. > > The proper response to this is derisive laughter. The contention that a female crow is called a raven is simply moronic. It’s like claiming a female coyote is called a wolf. > > Bet him $20 he can’t find a dictionary that defines raven as a female crow. Not to mention that frequently there is a difference in name associated with age, and state of sexual intactness [capon is a gelded chicken frex] as well as on the table as opposed to running around in a field. You can thank the Anglo-Saxons and Normans for that. [I seem to remember the food names tend towards the norman, and the running around in the field seem to be Anglo Saxon, pig vs pork [pig anglo saxon, pork from norman french porc] and there is a whole slew of age related naming [colt, foal, yearling and so forth] Then there are group names [murder of crow, flock of sheep, herd of cow and so on.] And as an odd question, what _does_ a professional ornithologist do for money? I have this mental image of one running up to someone wondering to another what that bird over there is … telling them the name and habits, and holding out a hand for money…:dubious::smack: ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/26 "2011-10-13T17:59:00Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > None of these online sites mention anything about a raven being a female crow > > [Raven - definition of raven by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/raven) > [RAVEN Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/raven) > [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/raven](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/raven) > [Raven Definition & Meaning | YourDictionary](http://www.yourdictionary.com/raven) > [http://dictionary.babylon.com/raven/](http://dictionary.babylon.com/raven/) Neither does the Oxford English Dictionary, universally regarded as the most comprehensive dictionary of the English language, have any mention of the word “raven” meaning “female crow”, nor do any of its dozens of citations appear to use the word in this sense. (Sometimes it is used as a synonym for “crow”, but never a specifically female one.) ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/27 "2011-10-13T18:42:44Z")
\*\*A hen to to chicken as ?? is to crow \*\* …as a writing desk is to a crow. Then ask your friend why a raven is like a writing desk. > **[Why is a raven like a writing desk?](https://www.straightdope.com/21342321/why-is-a-raven-like-a-writing-desk)** ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/28 "2011-10-13T18:42:56Z")
Interestingly, there is tendency in birds for the generic name to be the same as that for the female, whereas in mammals the generic term often refers to the male. Cases in which the generic term is also the name for the female: duck (generic), drake (male), duck (female) goose (generic), gander (male), goose (female) falcon (generic), tiercel (male), falcon (female). The generic is the same as the name for the male: dog (generic), dog (male), bitch (female) lion (generic), lion (male), lioness (female) tiger (generic), tiger (male), tigress (female) Distinct names for both male and female: chicken (generic), rooster, cock (male), hen (female) swan (generic), cob (male), pen (female) horse (generic), stallion (male), mare (female) fox (generic), vixen (female) dog fox (male) > [@aruvqan](#): > > Not to mention that frequently there is a difference in name associated with age, and state of sexual intactness [capon is a gelded chicken frex] as well as on the table as opposed to running around in a field. You can thank the Anglo-Saxons and Normans for that. [I seem to remember the food names tend towards the norman, and the running around in the field seem to be Anglo Saxon, pig vs pork [pig anglo saxon, pork from norman french porc] and there is a whole slew of age related naming [colt, foal, yearling and so forth] See my Staff Report on [Why do we eat “beef” and “pork” rather than “cow” and “pig”?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2008/why-do-we-eat-beef-and-pork-rather-than-cow-and-pig) > [@](#): > > And as an odd question, what _does_ a professional ornithologist do for money? I have this mental image of one running up to someone wondering to another what that bird over there is … telling them the name and habits, and holding out a hand for money…:dubious::smack: The same as any other scientist: do research and publish scientific articles. I also have done consulting work doing surveys of birds to establish baseline data for dam or oil projects or for monitoring programs. I also publish books on birds including field guides. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/29 "2011-10-13T19:02:25Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The same as any other scientist: do research and publish scientific articles. I also have done consulting work doing surveys of birds to establish baseline data for dam or oil projects or for monitoring programs. I also publish books on birds including field guides. That actually sounds interesting … I can remember helping some canadian friends fishing back in the early 70s when they were doing an impact study on a hydro plant. If the weather is nice, beats being stuck in an office staring at walls for inspiration 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/30 "2011-10-13T19:06:13Z")
I can see how he might have pulled that out of his ass. Because ravens and crows are similar-looking birds (at least to those of us laymen who wouldn’t know the difference), and Raven is commonly used as a female name in humans. Plus the word has somewhat of a feminine aura about it in general (e.g. Poe’s eponymous poem). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/31 "2011-10-13T19:08:22Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Plus the word has somewhat of a feminine aura about it in general (e.g. Poe’s eponymous poem). The bird in the poem is a male. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/32 "2011-10-13T19:19:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The bird in the poem is a male. Quite. See the paragraph beginning “But the raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only…” [http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html](http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/33 "2011-10-13T19:22:36Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Because ravens and crows are similar-looking birds (at least to those of us laymen who wouldn’t know the difference), The Northern Raven is a much larger, heavier, and powerful bird than any species of crow. Given that in most species of birds and mammals males are larger than females, if you saw them side by side you would guess the raven was the male. The term “raven-haired” is more commonly applied to women, but who knows how this guy came by the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/34 "2011-10-13T19:37:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The bird in the poem is a male. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Quite. See the paragraph beginning “But the raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only…” > > [iX: Das Magazin für professionelle IT | heise online](http://www.heise.de/ix/raven/Literature/Lore/TheRaven.html) But the poem is _about_ a woman (Lenore). I’m just positing how the guy might have come up with his theory. We already know it’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/35 "2011-10-13T19:48:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Quite. See the paragraph beginning “But the raven, sitting lonely on the placid bust, spoke only…” That, and “Tell me what thy lordly name is…”. Lord, not lady. And **Colibri** , I suspect that the reason most bird names default to the same form as the female is that the females are more economically important, due to the eggs they lay. Compare to _Bos taurus_, important for its milk, and for which the general name (in so far as there is one) is “cow”. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2011, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518/36 "2011-10-13T22:18:32Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > No female variant. Generally, the male vs. female designations come about when the distinction is iportant or obvious. In the case of roosters/cocks/hens, the difference is obvious and needs to be made for good farm management. Ditto for cow/bull, sow/boar, mare/stallion/gelding etc. Even in hunting, it’s a good idea to understand the distinction between a buck and a doe or a bull moose and a cow; it’s especially important to know which one will attack you without provocation and which will run away. > > Notice the distinction - moose are late to the game in English, so we simply adapt existing terminology. The original distinctions made their way into English when they were important parts of everyday life. There was no need or reason (or easy way) to distinguish between male and female of the crow, raven, gull, tern, eagle, hawk, or many other wild bird families; so the best we can do is adapt our existing terminology. Even where the male displays distinctive “beautiful plumage” (while pining for the fjords) we often do not have distinguishing names between the sexes (likely because a lot of these types of “male display” birds are not common to Britain?) > > AFAIK, either gender of crow is reknowned for the quality or quantity of their crowage. Although British birds aren’t the most showy we do, in fact, have a number of common species with distinct male/female variation – robins, various finches, mallard ducks for example. The principle that, in some bird species, females that sit eggs are drably ccamouflaged and males do the sexual display thing is quite apparent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hen-to-to-chicken-as-is-to-crow/599518.md?page=1)