# A history lesson with PumaClaw **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 17, 2002, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260 "2002-12-17T04:58:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/21 "2002-12-17T14:26:40Z")
He certainly offended mine. ---
**Author:** ![Tomcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/22 "2002-12-17T14:40:02Z")
I’d have to agree with **elf6c** …is this guy ban-proof because he’s of a more-persecuted-than-thou lineage? -Tomcat ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/23 "2002-12-17T15:20:52Z")
Well, he’s certainly entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/24 "2002-12-17T15:23:05Z")
Curses and naughty words! I splorked up the second part of my post! Ahem: Anyone that gets offended and decides we’re all racists cause of _Simpsons_ quotes(!) has got more than a few screws loose. ---
**Author:** ![Tomcat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Tomcat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tomcat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/25 "2002-12-17T15:33:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Silentgoldfish \* > \*\* > Anyone that gets offended and decides we’re all racists cause of _Simpsons_ quotes(!) has got more than a few screws loose. \*\* Well, **Coldfire** got upset at me for calling my ancestors “Cheese eating surrender monkeys.” So there is precedent… ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/26 "2002-12-17T16:02:16Z")
This comment rises out of the turd pile like a glistening peanut or a bishiny bit of corn: > [@](#): > > Obviously, these people have no debating skills and know even less about the art of polite conversation. They just want to attack whatever one says or attack what they think one says or attack something that’s not even remotely being said. The irony is astounding. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/27 "2002-12-17T16:04:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Demise \* > **bishiny** I invented a word! ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/28 "2002-12-17T16:32:34Z")
You know here I was, sitting behind the glow of the computer screen thinking to myself, geez, does Puma have a problem or do I have the problem? Then I finally checked the BBQ grounds. I still maintain the position that their could be hope for Puma if the anger was drawn back some and that the blanket stereotyping was reeled in a bit. To be honest, I did want to see a good exchange about Native Americans. My father was an ardent supporter of the Native American movement, back in the 70’s. His mother and him even met with Russell Means (sp?) and he has always expounded the virtues of our Indian blood. Do I claim to be Indian? I used to. However I no longer do, for some of the reasons mentioned by Puma. I don’t culturally identify with Native Americans, sure others in my family do. Some have even lived on reservations, but that doesn’t apply to me. Does that mean I am unsypathetic? Part of the problem? Not IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/29 "2002-12-17T17:11:48Z")
I guess **PumaClaw** would dismiss me as an applae or a twinkie or some other snack food. My dad was Choctaw, raised in Tahlequah, OK, where his ancestors ended up after Andy Jackson kicked them out of Mississippi. My mom is white. Although genetically, I’m half-Bering Sea pedestrian, I have no connection to my Indian relations, so that must mean that my dad never existed and I should shut up about being who I am. :mad: ( a smilie expressing genuine emotion along with chromatic irony) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/30 "2002-12-17T17:20:51Z")
**Pythagras** wrote: > [@](#): > > Its not far fetched to propose the trail of tears thing was a big conspiracy to get the Cherokee to relinquish their gold bearing lands in N. Georgia. Gold was discovered in Georgia in 1828. Plans to remove the Cherokee (and other Southern tribes) to the west of the Mississipi River were under discussion long before that. (In fact, I believe Jefferson was one of the first to broach the idea.) While the discovery of gold _may_ have accelerated the process, it was not the original motivation. The most-often-stated justifications for Indian removal were: 1. Elimination of the threat of Indian uprisings along the frontier. Most recently, the Red Stick faction of Creek Indians had attacked white settlers at the urging of the British and of the Shawnee Tecumseh. The Cherokee were peaceful at the time of removal, but it had not always been so. Andrew Jackson had a long memory, which included many run-ins with the Cherokee. 2. Procurement of land for settlers. This also ties in with the security issue. Jackson wanted to populate the Southeast with white settlers to render it immune to threats from foreign powers (the British and the Spanish in particular). 3. Preservation of tribes. It may have been (heck, probably was) disingenuous, but one of Jackson’s most common justifications for the removals was the preservation of the tribes as distinct entities. He argued (not without evidence) that the Southeastern tribes were being overrun with white squatters (a situation exacerbated by the gold rush in Georgia), that this would lead to inevitable conflict, and that the ensuing conflicts would result in the eradication of the Southeastern tribes. He pointed to the disappearance of the Mohegans in the Northeast as an example of what would happen to the tribes in the South if they did not remove. That last justification would have been more credible if Jackson (and Van Buren, under whom the Trail of Tears actually occurred) had shown any concern for the well-being of the Indians being removed. But of course, the removal was bungled so badly that some 4,000 Cherokee died along the way. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/31 "2002-12-17T17:24:59Z")
I’m guessing that would make you a deep fried pumpkin pie glazed with pashka sauce, **gobear**. Hmm, that sounds pretty tasty actually. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/32 "2002-12-17T19:19:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **…I have no connection to my Indian relations, so that must mean that my dad never existed and I should shut up about being who I am.** I think that **PumaClaw** would be glad that you are finally realizing that. You obviously should have figured it out sooner though. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![SmileyDeath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb8c5e/32.png) [@SmileyDeath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmileyDeath)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/33 "2002-12-17T19:32:29Z")
Looks like this guy has a major foot in the mouth dieases. he should just slink off into the sunset. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/34 "2002-12-17T19:39:15Z")
**Demise** , I trust that smiley is meant for **Puma Claw** and not me. My dad died when I was three, and his family turned its back on him and my mother for A) marrying and B)going to college (second-hand info from my mom–I have no idea what their side is and I don’t care. They made no effort to contact us, which speaks volumes), so I never knew anyone on that side of the family. There’s this great, big hole where my father ought to be and for someone like **PumaClaw** to tell me that I have no heritage from my father, that I’m nothing, is grossly insulting. ---
**Author:** ![Demise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/34f0e0/32.png) [@Demise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demise)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/35 "2002-12-17T19:44:34Z")
I’m sorry for the misunderstanding **gobear**. I was being sarcastic and thought that the roll eyes smiley would be a good indication of such. Hell, as someone who has family that is part Native American, and whose best friend is Native American (what? he is, really), I was also insulted. However, any insult I feel is vastly outweighed by what you must feel. I am sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/36 "2002-12-17T19:48:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*I guess **PumaClaw** would dismiss me as an applae or a twinkie or some other snack food. \*\* A little lesson in how my mind works: **gobear** refers to himself as a **snack food** in a thread about **PumaClaw**. And suddenly I want a Bear Claw. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/37 "2002-12-17T20:10:57Z")
[sub]Bering Sea pedestrian, 'bear? Was that truly necessary? I’m dyyyyin here . . .[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Pythagras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/45deac/32.png) [@Pythagras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pythagras)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/38 "2002-12-17T20:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*What the heck does that have to do with anything? Any time a philosopher lays the groundwork for 2000 years of philosophical thought, that person is a major philosopher, no matter what region he or she lived. > > By your criteria, what philosophers can be considered major? \*\* I think he’s a major philosopher, but its all relative. In terms of influence, westerner’s might not consider Lao Tzu a major philosopher (or have even heard of him). Nobody in China or India or Africa or Native America could care less about Socrates. So to Pumaclaw, Socrates is alien to him, and not major to his modes of thinking. Assuming he’s Native American… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/39 "2002-12-17T20:35:50Z")
::: envisions **Gobear** (whom Poly has met in person) as a Moses figure parting the Bering Sea :::: 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260/40 "2002-12-17T20:58:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Pythagras \* > \*\*I think he’s a major philosopher, but its all relative. In terms of influence, westerner’s might not consider Lao Tzu a major philosopher (or have even heard of him). Nobody in China or India or Africa or Native America could care less about Socrates. So to Pumaclaw, Socrates is alien to him, and not major to his modes of thinking. Assuming he’s Native American… \*\* I think you’d be hard pressed to find a Westerner who knew anything about philosophy who didn’t consider Lao Tzu to be a major figure in the field, even if they don’t personally embrace his philosophy. Lao Tzu had a major impact in Eastern cultures. Eastern cultures have had a major impact on the world in general. Therefore, Lao Tzu is a major philosopher. The same is true in the West of Socrates. Like you said, it is all relative. And in relation to other philosophers, there are very few who have affected as many people as Socrates. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-history-lesson-with-pumaclaw/143260.md?page=3)