# A huge and mostly overlooked development: the collapse of the "evangelical" voting bloc **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 5, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970 "2016-03-05T00:05:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/41 "2016-03-06T01:26:15Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > There is also a certain amount of Biblical support for capitalism. II Thessalonians 3:10– > “For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.” The Bible is against ownership or investment income, then. Not very capitalist at all. ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/42 "2016-03-06T01:48:52Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and **be content with your wages**." Here is the context: > [@](#): > > Tax collectors also came to be baptized and said to him, “Teacher, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Collect no more than you are authorized to do.” > > Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely–be content with your pay.” This passage says nothing about unionization. It’s about the wrongness of stealing money from the people whose taxes you are collecting. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/43 "2016-03-06T02:02:32Z")
Actually Roman soldiers frequently spent their free time extorting money or other goods from civilians all over the Empire. This was not on behalf of, nor passed on to, the authorities. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/44 "2016-03-06T02:52:03Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > An [article that came up in another thread](http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424/trump-authoritarianism). Maybe what evangelicals really want is authoritarianism and racist stuff is the manifestation of that tendency when they feel threatened, just as strict religious observation appeals to that same tendency. > > The point being that Evangelicals are less motivated by “Jesus stuff” than by being more likely to have authoritarian personality types and especially when under perceived threat. And Trump is a classic authoritarian leader. George Lakoff, the originator of the theory that conceptions of family explain liberalism or conservatism, discusses Donald Trump: [http://georgelakoff.com/2016/03/02/why-trump/](http://georgelakoff.com/2016/03/02/why-trump/) He delineates white Evangelical Christians, laissez-fair free market conservatives, and pragmatic conservatives. Trump is in the last camp. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/45 "2016-03-06T05:46:08Z")
Acts 4-5 describes the very first Christian church established in Jerusalem. Sounds pretty socialist–even communist–to me: > [@](#): > > 32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. > > 36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means “son of encouragement”), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostles’ feet. > > 5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet. > > 3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” > > 5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him. > > 7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?” > > “Yes,” she said, “that is the price.” > > 9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.” > > 10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events. > [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > I wonder if using the label “evangelical” was a fad that peaked in the 2000s? I literally never heard the word “evangelical” in my life (albeit in the Northeast) until around the time G.W. Bush got elected, and then it was suddenly everywhere overnight. I think earlier than that it was maybe “Moral Majority” or “fundamentalist”? > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > But, in that sense, the evangelical bloc still exists and will continue to vote as it does now and has been voting for decades. What practical political difference does it make how many of them are really devoted to Jesus? I don’t think that’s right, because we never saw significant numbers of them vote for someone so obviously irreligious and profane as Drumpf. And while Drumpf got the plurality of self-proclaimed evangelical voters in some states, he certainly didn’t get the overwhelming majority–some of whom presumably share these evangelical leaders’ disgust for him. So really, they aren’t the “bloc” these evangelical leaders thought they were. There may be some real bloc, but it’s a significantly smaller group than they always thought. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/46 "2016-03-06T13:28:26Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > George Lakoff, the originator of the theory that conceptions of family explain liberalism or conservatism, discusses Donald Trump: [AGEN138 ©️ Link Daftar Situs Slot Online Gacor Hari Ini & Agen Slot Terbaru](http://georgelakoff.com/2016/03/02/why-trump/) > > He delineates white Evangelical Christians, laissez-fair free market conservatives, and pragmatic conservatives. Trump is in the last camp. Thank you for that link. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/47 "2016-03-06T14:16:48Z")
Makes perfect sense; if you’re willing to believe what some fictional book thumping clown says, you’re sure as hell ripe for Trump’s leadership - all praise. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/48 "2016-03-06T16:26:26Z")
An interesting line in **Measure for Measure** ’s quoted Lakoff article, is to the effect that most the people who upon having a religious awakening choose an Evangelical church are those who _already_ lean towards traditionalist-conservative values in their lives. > [@SlackerInc](#): > > I don’t think that’s right, because we never saw significant numbers of them vote for someone so obviously irreligious and profane … while [he] got the plurality of self-proclaimed evangelical voters in some states, he certainly didn’t get the overwhelming majority–some of whom presumably share these evangelical leaders’ disgust for him. So really, they aren’t the “bloc” these evangelical leaders thought they were. There may be some real bloc, but it’s a significantly smaller group than they always thought. Which would correspond with a scenario in which those who **do** vote based on Conservative Evangelical \*pastoral \*guidance may have stayed with Cruz, but _they are not enough to make him the winner_. ( FWIW they have never been enough to be the ones to decide the winner of the Republican nomination by themselves. Both Bushes, Dole, McCain, Romney… not exactly a Hall of Fame of pious Bible-thumpers. Just that this time around the bluff got called.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/49 "2016-03-06T17:03:34Z")
Makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/50 "2016-03-06T17:26:11Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Points taken. But I always thought it was bound up with a really regressive and repressive sexual morality. Drumpf massively upends that supposition (although his crowd probably wouldn’t be so okay with a female candidate who was on her third marriage and had talked crudely about marital affairs so often). That supposition was already upended with conservative-Christian support for divorced-and-remarried non-churchgoing Hollywood celebrity Ronald Reagan in 1980. It may be hard to remember what an eyebrow-raiser that was at the time: in fact, Reagan remains the only POTUS so far to have been divorced. But conservative Christians get divorced a lot too, so it didn’t bother them as long as he verbally endorsed socially conservative values. Same thing for Sarah Palin, a mother of young children (one of them a special-needs infant) who didn’t stay home to care for her family but was actively involved in time- and travel-intensive national political campaigning, and whose eldest daughter is a single mother twice over. As long as a self-professed social conservative candidate is vociferous enough about slamming liberals, conservative Christians don’t seem to mind much if they don’t practice conservative Christian values in their own lives. Consequently, I don’t see Trump’s success among them as in any way anomalous. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/51 "2016-03-06T17:52:06Z")
It’s not so much that the “evangelical” vote has collapsed. It’s more that evangelicals were never as monolithic as widely assumed. To use an analogy, people sometimes talk about “the” Catholic Vote. But there ISN’T “a” Catholic vote, and never was. "The"Catholic vote consists of multiples parts that don’t have much in common with each other. Many people who identify as “Catholic” on a survey rarely or never go to Church. Many more go to Church regularly, but ignore most Church teachings while in the voting booth. Some embrace Catholic doctrine on abortion but reject Catholic teachings on poverty or the death penalty (while others do just the reverse). So, if Pope Francis condemns Donald Trump’s policies on immigration, Trump can safely tell the Pope to go jump in the lake without worrying about alienating the Catholics who already support him. A blue-collar, Irish-American, nominal Catholic in “Southie” Boston probably thinks it’s GREAT that Trump told the Pope where to stick it! It’s no different in parts of the South widely perceived as dominated by evangelical Christians. Some people who identify as “Baptist” or “evangelical” rarely go to Church. Some affirm all of the Bible’s teachings but either don’t know or care what the Bible actually says. Some don’t vote at all, some vote only occasionally, some vote their pocketbooks without worrying about social issues, some CARE about Church teachings but have more immediate personal priorities (a Granny in Alabama may hate abortion and gay marriage, but she’ll still vote Democrat if she’s more worried about cuts to Social Security), and so on. Only a certain number of evangelical Christians are BOTH committed to their faith’s core teachings AND determined to vote only for candidates who share those principles. That’s always been the case. Remember that, until the Sixties, both parties shared pretty much the same stances on social issues. In 1956, a devout Baptist in Mississippi would have voted for Adlai Stevenson, because that made good economic sense, and there was no sense that Adlai would do anything to change the moral order. There are STILL plenty of Southern Christians who are inclined to vote their pocketbooks, regardless of moral issues. Donald Trump is speaking THEIR language. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/52 "2016-03-06T19:09:02Z")
From what I remember reading, the Catholic vote is significant in a different way. It almost always goes to the winner of the popular vote. So it is a key swing vote, or at least reflective of the nation at large. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/53 "2016-03-06T20:19:25Z")
Growing up Catholic in the Mid-Atlantic region, we never had lectures from priests telling us who to side with, and we never had a guest politician speaking at our pulpit like most evangelicals do. A Southern Baptist church can have any number of people talking politics at homily time, mixing and comparing their faith(s) to things like republican “family values”, “god-given rights”, etc. I would give MORE sway to evangelicals siding with their preachers in Cruz’s latest upswing than giving credit to Romney and other desperate republicans trying to downplay Trump. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2016, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/54 "2016-03-07T02:27:50Z")
Interesting, so it could be a coincidence. That would explain why Rubio is not benefiting. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/55 "2016-03-09T10:09:26Z")
[Another NPR story](http://www.npr.org/2016/02/29/468553304/as-evangelicals-lose-faith-in-cruz-his-campaign-could-be-beyond-resurrection) sheds some light: > [@](#): > > [D]efining what exactly constitutes an evangelical voter can be misleading in polling. A Vox study this month noted that “regular, weekly church attendance — as measured by a standard Pew Research question included in my survey — predicted a statistically significant and substantive opposition to Trump.” > > That’s an important distinction, especially in the South, where church and religious activities are ingrained in the culture, but degrees of devotion vary. > > “In the South, there aren’t that many people willing to answer the phone and tell a live human being they’re not born-again. After all someone in the room might be listening,” said Haynes. > > “The culture of the South is replete with people who’ve answered an altar call and qualify as born-again, but 20 years later it would be difficult for them to demonstrate how they’re living an evangelical, Christ-centered life,” he continued. “They’re Christian by definition, but it’s not the central driving force of their life.” > > It’s those, maybe more tepid believers whom Trump has tailored an appeal to, with his bombast against illegal immigrants, America’s weakness abroad and promise to restore the country’s greatness. ---
**Author:** ![moldmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@moldmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moldmonkey)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/56 "2016-03-09T15:46:05Z")
Thanks to everyone for the linked articles and the intro to Vox. . . . and the snarky comments.😃 Good thread. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/57 "2016-03-09T16:13:18Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > [Another NPR story](http://www.npr.org/2016/02/29/468553304/as-evangelicals-lose-faith-in-cruz-his-campaign-could-be-beyond-resurrection) sheds some light: > > > [@](#): > > > > … > > In the South, there aren’t that many people willing to answer the phone and tell a live human being they’re not born-again. After all someone in the room might be listening," said Haynes. > > … Reminds me of an old joke: Never take one Baptist (or one Mormon) fishing with you; they’ll drink all your beer. The solution: take two Baptists (or Mormons). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/58 "2016-03-09T16:20:20Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Reminds me of an old joke: Never take one Baptist (or one Mormon) fishing with you; they’ll drink all your beer. The solution: take two Baptists (or Mormons). 😃 And what’s the difference between a Baptist and a Methodist? A Methodist will say “Hi!” to you in the liquor store. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2016, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/59 "2016-03-09T21:55:58Z")
Ha! Good ones, both of you. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970/60 "2016-03-10T18:32:21Z")
Terry Mattingly at the Get Religion blog is one of my favorite writers on religion. On the subject of “the Catholic vote,” he has written that there are really four distinct and very different “Catholic Votes.” And I think something very similar holds true for the “Evangelical” vote. 1 **Ex-Catholics.** Solid for the Democrats. GOP has no chance. 1. \*\*Cultural Catholics \*\*who may go to church a few times a year. This may be an undecided voter – check out that classic Atlantic Monthly tribes of American religion piece – depending on what is happening with the economy, foreign policy, etc. Leans to Democrats. 3 **Sunday-morning American Catholics**. This voter is a regular in the pew and may even play some leadership role in the parish. This is the Catholic voter that is really up for grabs, the true swing voter that the candidates are after. 1. \*\*The “Sweats The Details” Roman Catholic \*\*who goes to confession. Is active in the full sacramental life of the parish and almost always backs the Vatican, when it comes to matters of faith and practice. This is where the GOP has made its big gains in recent decades, but it is a very small slice of the American Catholic pie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-huge-and-mostly-overlooked-development-the-collapse-of-the-evangelical-voting-bloc/747970.md?page=4)