# A hypothetical torture scenario **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089 "2008-02-10T23:07:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/21 "2008-02-11T04:50:50Z")
So, at what point does it become dicey for you? 50%? Less? ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/22 "2008-02-11T07:53:41Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun] 1. No he should be water boarded which is not torture. [/QUOTE] According to the people that actually know what waterboarding is, you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/23 "2008-02-11T07:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=newcrasher] You should have just said, can the most hardened, best trained person resist our best torture techniques (which also do not exist - wink wink) [/QUOTE] My bet is that yes, the best trained person could resist the best torture technique. People have been conditioned to peacefully ignite themselves after being doused with gasoline in protest, and quietly burn to death without making a fuss. If you’ve got something scarier than that to put someone through I’m sure the CIA would love to hear from you. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/24 "2008-02-11T12:39:25Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] My bet is that yes, the best trained person could resist the best torture technique. People have been conditioned to peacefully ignite themselves after being doused with gasoline in protest, and quietly burn to death without making a fuss. If you’ve got something scarier than that to put someone through I’m sure the CIA would love to hear from you. [/QUOTE] Being conditioned to willingly ignite yourself, and sitting peacefully while someone does it against your will are two different things, and no one will ever stop you in mid burn to ask you to divulge secrets. The two situations have nothing to do with each other. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/25 "2008-02-11T12:55:38Z")
I support torture in that instance, but I still think it should be illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/26 "2008-02-11T13:59:40Z")
Are there people who can resist any form of pain-inducing torture? Yes, for a kick-off there are people with a genetic condition that means they can’t feel pain at all. Can someone be tortured indefinitely without giving up information? Yep, the easiest way is for the person to try to confuse themselves about what the information is, which is certainly an achievable skill. Not sure if this is quite in the spirit of what the OP was asking though. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/27 "2008-02-11T14:36:07Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I support torture in that instance, but I still think it should be illegal. [/QUOTE] How do you reconcile the two halves of this statement? It seems simple, but I can’t see a way to resolve it under any depth of examination. If you’re saying something is a supportable idea, and should be done in certain circumstances, then why should it be illegal under those conditions? Or if something is illegal, how is it a supportable idea, and something we should do? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/28 "2008-02-11T15:07:16Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] So, at what point does it become dicey for you? 50%? Less? [/QUOTE] If we’re talking no permanent damage, then I’d support it at 50%. But you make a valid point with the slippery slope. At what point does one person’s temporary discomfort not balance with saving lives? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/29 "2008-02-11T15:15:12Z")
[QUOTE=The Controvert] At what point does one person’s temporary discomfort not balance with saving lives? [/QUOTE] That’s a valid concern, but one not in the minds of most people on either side of the torture debate. The issues are the reliability of the information, the rights that innocent people have against being tortured, the safety of the public that theoretically could be obtained through torture, and the long-term psychological trauma and risk of serious injury or death through torture. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/30 "2008-02-11T15:55:18Z")
Hey–is it “I, too can be a screenwriter” week? Again? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/31 "2008-02-11T16:07:32Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] How do you reconcile the two halves of this statement? It seems simple, but I can’t see a way to resolve it under any depth of examination. If you’re saying something is a supportable idea, and should be done in certain circumstances, then why should it be illegal under those conditions? Or if something is illegal, how is it a supportable idea, and something we should do? [/QUOTE] The problem as I see it is this; whatever law we make that allows torture to any extent with no potential punishment, we’re effectively handing delegating the power to make the decision as to whether it’s suitable in the particular occasion to the interrogators (whoever that may be). Saying “significant and present threat means torture is ok” (for an example) means that the interrogators are the ones that get to decide what that threat means. Higher brass may afterwards disagree, and the interrogator may be punished for being wrong, but that just means we have two problems; torture’s still be done, and interrogators are being punished for getting it wrong. The best way as I can see it to solve this problem (and certainly it’s by no means perfect) is to make all torture illegal, or court martial material. That way, when an interrogator has to make that call, they’re weighing it against the chance that they’ll be drummed out dishonourably, or whatever. I think it’s a good deterrent against uncessary torture, while still meaning that the interrogator can say “Ok, i’m not allowed to do this, but the threat is such that i’m willing to take on that potential punishment”. To take the example of the OP, were torture entirely illegal, I would imagine that there would be at the very least one interrogator who is willing to take on the blame in order to stop those murders. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/32 "2008-02-11T16:14:52Z")
[QUOTE=The Controvert] If we’re talking no permanent damage, then I’d support it at 50%. But you make a valid point with the slippery slope. At what point does one person’s temporary discomfort not balance with saving lives? [/QUOTE] It is interesting that you’d support torturing people based upon a lesser basis of certitude than what a court would require in order to grant the police a search warrant to look through someone’s house. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/33 "2008-02-11T17:04:40Z")
Torture is wrong in all cases and is demeaning to all involved. While you may be able to construct a scenario where, just this once, it’s worthwhile to torture, that’s a long way from justification for torture in general. I think it speaks volumes that it is so difficult to construct a scenario, however implausible, where torture could even remotely be justified. 1. Should the evil person be tortured and if so, how? No, never. First, who will do the torturing. Second, you’ve already established that this is an evil person; now you are going to believe anything he says because he’s in pain? 2. Will it work and if so, how quickly? Who knows? If your torture is working right your victim will say anything you want him to say, so how can you know if his information is correct. But at least the torturer gets a thrill. While you’ve got him on the table, get him to tell you where the pot of gold is, where to find the fountain of youth and get a cure for cancer too. 3. Can the info be extracted without causing permanent damage to the evil person? You mean permanent physical damage. Sure, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/34 "2008-02-11T17:55:37Z")
[QUOTE=The Controvert] A random innocent American citizen is being murdered every minute. The only way to stop this is to get a piece of information, which once obtained, stops the murders instantly and completely (without further consequence). Assume we can know the random murders are stopped, therefore the information can be reliably verified. [/QUOTE] Also: 1. This is not modern Earth, but Moon Base Ganymede, at Jupiter. 2. The mastermind we’re torturing is not a human being, but a superintelligent chicken with psychic powers. We don’t need the chicken to talk, we just need the chicken to _think about_ the information, so our own psychic superchicken can read it. 3. The American citizens being murdered every minute are being killed by having radioactive billiard balls shot up their buttholes at the speed of sound. This doesn’t really affect the scenario, except to make it Extra Horrible ™. 4. It’s the day before your anniversary, and you still haven’t bought your spouse’s gift, so the clock is REALLY ticking. 5. Angry monkeys have surrounded Radio City Music Hall and are demanding that Constitutional protections be extended beyond just the primate population, to include superintelligent psychic chickens, even those offworld. 6. The Dow Jones Industrial Average dropped four percent the previous day. 7. You’re kind of hungry, but the Caesar salad in the Ganymede commissary just isn’t going to do it for you, and the grill doesn’t open for another four hours. 8. A massive fleet of Crotathian battle cruisers, powered by antimatter reactors and armed with particle fluctuators, cryothermic warheads, and highly trained Drakoogian bone weevils, has been detected passing the orbit of Neptune. Preliminary analysis of the fleet’s trajectory suggests that they’re not aiming at Earth, they’re just passing through, probably on their way to attack the M’Stavruci homeworld again, but we don’t know that for sure, and even so we don’t want to attract their attention. 9. Your psychic chicken says that the evil mastermind chicken is thinking you’re a pantywaist. _Now_ what do you do? Huh? Huh? _NOW WHAT?_ ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/35 "2008-02-11T17:58:47Z")
[QUOTE=shiftless] Who knows? If your torture is working right your victim will say anything you want him to say, so how can you know if his information is correct. But at least the torturer gets a thrill. While you’ve got him on the table, get him to tell you where the pot of gold is, where to find the fountain of youth and get a cure for cancer too. [/QUOTE] Except in the OP, it states the information can be easily verified. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/36 "2008-02-11T18:03:03Z")
Since so many seasoned interrogators have publicly stated that torture just plain doesn’t work, and is more likely to harden the resolve of the person being tortured, I would have to say no to torture. What you would ultimately achieve is more days of random deaths. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/37 "2008-02-11T18:50:59Z")
[QUOTE=The Controvert] 2. Will it work and if so, how quickly? [/QUOTE] Doubtful. The subject will say anything that might get the interrogators to stop; it will not necessarily bear any relationship to the truth. The no-visible-marks-left psychological torture – sleep deprivation, loud noises all night, heat and cold, shackling in stressed positions, threatening with dogs, defiling Korans, etc. – that our military has been using on prisoners originally was invented by the North Koreans, and was successful in getting American POWs to appear in films **falsely** confessing to war crimes. U.S. psychologists studied it and determined the process is useless for any purpose but the production of false propaganda; no reliable information can be extracted, only what the subject thinks the interrogator wants to hear. But the authorities appear to have lost sight of that distinction. The methods were used in the SERE (Survive, Evade, Resist, and Escape) program, in which American special forces personnel were put through such psychological torture to teach them to resist it if captured. After 9/11, NCOs who had played the part of foreign interrogators in such simulations were put in charge of **real** interrogations and expected to get reliable information from prisoners, and for the most part didn’t. You can read the story in [_Takeover: The Return of the Imperial Presidency and the Subversion of American Democracy,_](http://www.amazon.com/Takeover-Imperial-Presidency-Subversion-Democracy/dp/0316118044) by Charlie Savage, Chapter 9, “The Torture Ban.” ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/38 "2008-02-11T18:53:34Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Also: 1. This is not modern Earth, but Moon Base Ganymede, at Jupiter… 2. Your psychic chicken says that the evil mastermind chicken is thinking you’re a pantywaist. _Now_ what do you do? Huh? Huh? _NOW WHAT?_ [/QUOTE] You definitely win the “I Want To Be a Screenwriter” Contest! Throw in a snogging scene between the Evil Mastermind Chicken & the Torturer & it could be a _Torchwood_ episode! ---
**Author:** ![Hogwash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e57/32.png) [@Hogwash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hogwash)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/39 "2008-02-11T19:04:39Z")
If we can write-off several thousand lives a year in return for the freedom to drive automobiles, then allowing a handful of innocents to die at the hands of a serial killer in order to preserve law, justice and the higher principles of a civilised society seems like great bang for buck to me. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089/40 "2008-02-11T19:17:55Z")
[QUOTE=NurseCarmen] Since so many seasoned interrogators have publicly stated that torture just plain doesn’t work, and is more likely to harden the resolve of the person being tortured, [/QUOTE] …or feed the interrogators a potentially endless amount of false information. So as long as we’re talking about dream factory hypothetical scenarios: “If you fucking beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire! Now that don’t necessarily make it fucking so!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-hypothetical-torture-scenario/437089.md?page=3)