# A \[I\]real\[/I\] doctor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [April 10, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830 "2003-04-10T17:46:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jimbobboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/22d042/32.png) [@jimbobboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbobboy)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/1 "2003-04-10T17:46:40Z")
Re/ SDStaff Ken’s excellent report [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbachelor.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbachelor.html) As “Ceux-là du souffle du canard” bade us remember about Dr. Science, > [@](#): > > He’s not a _real_ doctor … “I have a **Master’s Degree** (in Science!)” ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/2 "2003-04-10T18:57:10Z")
So, where did the usage of “bachelor” to mean unmarried come from? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Steinhart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b77776/32.png) [@Tom\_Steinhart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Steinhart)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/3 "2003-04-11T01:05:53Z")
Isaac Asimov once commented that, to get a Doctorate in anything other than medicine, you had to do original research. To become a Doctor of Medicine, all you had to do was make it through the school. So Isaac thought that a PhD was a real degree, while an MD was a glorified Bachelor’s degree. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/4 "2003-04-11T02:10:54Z")
Judging from period literature I’ve read, “bachelor” went through a period, ca. 1800, of meaning “graduate student”. I’d guess that “unmarried man” stemmed from that. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/5 "2003-04-11T12:25:07Z")
hijack/ JWK – not that this has anything to do with this thread, but what does that quote from Charles Williams mean? /hijack ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/6 "2003-04-11T13:15:05Z")
In one of Williams’ novels, _Descent Into Hell,_ he tells of a poet who, asked for an explanation of his latest poem, could succeed only in reciting it over again, because that was the only way of explaining it. Since Williams later used the name of that fictional poet as a pseudonym, I think we are safe in assuming that the poet is himself. Hie thee to Alibris and find a copy of _Taliessin Through Logres._ (And, because it is a difficult work, _Arthurian Torso,_ which is largely a commentary on _Taliessin Through Logres_ and its companion, _The Region of the Summer Stars)._ ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/7 "2003-04-11T14:27:26Z")
Thanks. I’ll add those books to the list (although I’m not sure if they are good train reading). ---
**Author:** ![smaszk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@smaszk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smaszk)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/8 "2003-04-11T20:35:20Z")
Actually, all Doctors hold the title of PHD. PHD derives from Philosophy. Philosophical Doctorate: to teach ones philosophy. The title of Doctor has been around far longer than the practice of medicine. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Hand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mr.Hand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Hand)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/9 "2003-04-12T01:22:29Z")
**smaszk** said: > [@](#): > > The title of Doctor has been around far longer than the practice of medicine I’m afraid I’m going to need a cite for that one. How can you say that medicine is predated by a title with latin roots? Are you using the word “medicine” in some normative sense that would exclude, say, pre-Scientific medicine attempts at tending to patients? **smaszk** also said: > [@](#): > > Actually, all Doctors hold the title of PHD. PHD derives from Philosophy. Philosophical Doctorate: to teach ones philosophy. And again, I’d ask for a cite on that one, too. What about those with Doctorates in Law or Divinity? Assuredly law schools do not confer PhD’s on their graduates. And while the term “doctor” may have originally implied competency to teach a given subject, today, it refers to the highest degree of competency in that subject. Or are you using the word “doctor” in a special way that excludes linguistic drift? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/10 "2003-04-12T03:30:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, all Doctors hold the title of PHD. False. A) It’s “PhD”, not “PHD”. B) And all Doctors are not PhD’s. > [@](#): > > PHD derives from Philosophy. True. Note, however, that “philosophy” covers what we would today call “science”, as well as those metaphysical subjects usually classed as “philosophy” today. > [@](#): > > The title of Doctor has been around far longer than the practice of medicine. False. However, I believe “Doctor” has been around longer than “Medical Doctor” or “Doctor of Medicin”. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Hand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mr.Hand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Hand)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2003, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/11 "2003-04-12T05:06:00Z")
**John W. Kennedy** , originally, the word “doctor” did mean something along the lines of “teacher of philosophy.” (I’d cite to the OED online, but you have to be a subscriber to view the link.) It’s a really old word. The OED quotes usages of the word in that respect – and referring to Sts. Ambrose, Augustine, Jerome, and Gregory – dating from 1303. The earliest usage the OED identifies of the word “doctor” denoting a person who has had a degree conferred upon them is from three-quarters of a century later (1377). The OED dates the first use of the word “doctor” to refer to a medical doctor to the same year (1377). Interestingly, the OED lists the same date for the usage of “doctor” to refer to someone proficient in the law. OK – so all these are from the same source… whaddya want me to do? Another site ([http://www.etymonline.com/d5etym.htm](http://www.etymonline.com/d5etym.htm)) gives the etymology of “doctor” as follows: > [@](#): > > doctor - c.1303, from [O.Fr](http://O.Fr). doctour, from M.L. doctor “religious teacher, adviser, scholar,” from L. doctor “teacher,” from doct- stem of docere “to show, teach,” originally “make to appear right,” causative of decere “be seemly, fitting” (see decent). Familiar form doc first recorded 1850s. Meaning of “highest degree in university” is first found 14c.; so is “medical professional,” though this was not common till 16c. Verb sense of “alter, disguise, falsify” is first recorded 1774. Alright. I’m getting a little too tired to track down the overlap between “medicine” and “philosophy” in contemporaneous usage. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/12 "2003-04-13T19:28:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John W. Kennedy \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by smaszk \* > > \*\*Actually, all Doctors hold the title of PHD. \*\* > > **False. A) It’s “PhD”, not “PHD”. B) And all Doctors are not PhD’s.** Also false. Some doctors do, in fact, have PhDs. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/13 "2003-04-14T16:48:27Z")
But not most. MD-PhD’s (or “Mudd-fudds” as they are known) are a minority of doctors of medicine, and are usually not found in general clinical practice. They are mostly involved in medical research programs, perhaps with clinical trials or drug development. ---
**Author:** ![smaszk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@smaszk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smaszk)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/14 "2003-04-15T15:13:33Z")
Ok, well first off Philosophy, and the ‘PhD’ are Greek not Latin. The ‘PhD’ has been around since Aristotle. If you don’t have a ‘PhD’ you are not a Doctor. Just because you use a word incorrectly does not make it fact. To hold the title Doctor you must have a Doctorate degree. Anyone without an official, not Honorary, ‘PhD’ can not be called a Doctor. Anyone that has an Official ‘PhD’ is a ‘Doctor’ regardless of profession. Language use is not an excuse for using a title incorrectly. Don’t give me any comment on your Medical ‘Doctor’ theory. You are just using the title incorrectly and so is he/she. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/15 "2003-04-15T15:29:18Z")
So how DO you address your healthcare provider – “Sawbones”? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/16 "2003-04-15T16:14:51Z")
“Philosophy” is Greek, but “doctor” is Latin, the modern sense of the word “doctor” extends only back to the middle ages, and “MD”, “LLD”, “ThD” and others are genuine degrees awarded by genuine universities. ---
**Author:** ![jimbobboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/22d042/32.png) [@jimbobboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbobboy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/17 "2003-04-15T21:17:30Z")
So, if it walks like a doctor, and [quacks](http://www.ducksbreath.com/ducks/index.htm) like a doctor, it’s a doctor? Or is it whether it [doctors](http://www.ducksbreath.com/) like a [quack](http://www.alternativemedicine.com/)? Now I’m all confused again … ---
**Author:** ![Joan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/43a26b/32.png) [@Joan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2003, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/18 "2003-04-16T13:02:52Z")
I like Cecil’s version of ‘You can always tell…but you can’t tell him much’. I find this is true of all engineers. Here in Cambridge we say ‘You can always tell a Girton girl but you can’t tell her much’. we also say ‘You can always tell a Girton girl. She eats her banana sideways so as not to offend the Warden’. The Warden is the lady chief of Girton College. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/19 "2003-04-20T06:11:27Z")
**John W. Kennedy** said: > [@](#): > > False. A) It’s “PhD”, not “PHD”. B) And all Doctors are not PhD’s. **psychonaut** responded: > [@](#): > > Also false. Some doctors do, in fact, have PhDs. John’s wording is ambiguous. Does he mean “Not all doctors are PhD’s,” or “No doctors are PhD’s”? You seem to think he said the latter, but I’m pretty sure he meant the former. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830/20 "2003-04-20T18:49:46Z")
Quite right. As a student of [Loglan](http://www.loglan.org), I am thoroughly ashamed. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-i-real-i-doctor/167830.md?page=2)