# A jazz band without a clarinet? Whoever heard of such a thing? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 19, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904 "2004-04-19T22:09:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2004, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/21 "2004-04-20T23:10:41Z")
big band Jazz can’t feature a clarinet? I think the Glenn Miller sound would contradict you (4 saxaphones and a clarinet). a clarinet fits in perfect with alot of dixieland Jazz also. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/22 "2004-04-21T00:25:22Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > If we have, Ike, the discussion didn’t stick or you’d know IT AIN’T JAZZ IF IT’S WRITTEN DOWN! Ah, I didn’t know that was a rule. :rolleyes: You’re pretty much an idiot if you think that. Jazz is always written down. How the hell would they know the chord changes if it wasn’t written? Or the bridges? Or the hooks? > [@](#): > > Big Band music is mostly insipid Pop. The better stuff like Ellington is Light Classical with a beat. Goodman and Krupa were okay in a combo, once I got past the fact that it was really a Klezmer band\*, but the Big Band stuff was almost as bad as Glen Miller’s. Well, it’s a good thing your daughter didn’t join. Sounds like sour grapes to me. > [@](#): > > “Heft” is for big rooms. Jazz isn’t for big rooms because you lose the intimacy. It’s for small, smokey rooms where you can get some booze and some smack and hookers are encouraged because they bring in customers. Meaning not any high school around here. Not even the Catholic ones. Again, you’re a fucking moron with no clue. I suppose the fact that jazz originated as dance music has no bearing on what is and isn’t jazz. If anything, bebop was a departure from jazz. > [@](#): > > I’m a purist. I have trouble accepting White guys as Jazz musicians, though it helps if they are junkies.\*\* And Jews. A Jewish junkie _almost_ equals one tee-totaling Black guy.\*\*\* Again, you’re a fucking moron. > [@](#): > > 1. Didn’t you hear? Jazz can’t be played on a violin, either. Trumpet, piano, drums, bass, or saxophone only. (Jeeze, I love Grappelli, too! Ya know, I should break down and buy some.) You left out trombone. > [@](#): > > Hmmmm, I guess that explains why school Jazz bands tend to suck. I always thought it was because they were all Big Band wannabes and that’s correct. Now somebody can explain to me how Big Band is Jazz and not brassy, overblown Pop with absolutely no room for improvisation. Again, you’re an idiot with no clue. There’s tons of room to improvise in big band. Listen to Bassie’s “Jumpin’ at the Woodside” on the “First Time” album with Ellington and listen to the two tenors improvise over the entire song back and forth. Or listen to “Battle Royal” which is nothing but improvisation going back and forth between the two bands. Big band generally features extensive improvisation. Even at the high school level. Our band generally featured 3 or 4 32 - 64 bar improvised solos per song. A lot of our practice time was merely going around the room improvising over chord changes for 16 bars or so. In fact, I’d argue that improvising in the big band is more fun and more challenging because you have a band behind you tossing out things for you to riff off of and it’s more difficult to cover up mistakes since it clashes much more when you wander off course in the big band setting. ---
**Author:** ![Revedge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecae2f/32.png) [@Revedge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revedge)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/23 "2004-04-21T00:55:01Z")
Dropzone, You are under the mistaken impression that if you dislike a particular style of a genre, then it isn’t part of that genre. Jazz includes Big Band. It includes music that is written down. It includes white guys and black. You may not like Stan Kenton or Benny Goodman, or Duke Ellinton, or the Dirty Dozen Brss Band, or the Preservation Hall Orchestra, Or, or, or,… THere is no fucking way that Satchmo wasn’t playing jazz. By your criteria, the only thing he has going for him is he is black. ---
**Author:** ![tremorviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@tremorviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tremorviolet)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/24 "2004-04-21T02:32:42Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > “Heft” is for big rooms. Jazz isn’t for big rooms because you lose the intimacy. It’s for small, smokey rooms where you can get some booze and some smack and hookers are encouraged because they bring in customers. And this is where you want your eight grade daughter hanging out? With the hookers and the junkies? You know, it’s a _high school_ band. The orchestra is playing cut down versions of the classics. They’re probably not using a real canon for the 1812 Overture. The purpose of jazz band is to give them an _introduction_ to jazz. If it’s anything like my band, they’ll play big band _and_ modern jazz. And the solos will have the options of using the written version or improv. Jeez, can you imagine the noise if you just stuck 20 high school kids in a room and told them to just “wing it”? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/25 "2004-04-21T03:48:32Z")
> [@Revedge](#): > > You are under the mistaken impression that if you dislike a particular style of a genre, then it isn’t part of that genre. This is mistaken…how? 😕 > [@](#): > > There is no fucking way that Satchmo wasn’t playing jazz. And did I say he wasn’t? > [@](#): > > By your criteria, the only thing he has going for him is he is black. AND the son of a whore! AND with a lifelong taste for boo! A jazzman all the way. > [@tremorviolet](#): > > And this is where you want your eight grade daughter hanging out? With the hookers and the junkies? Whoa, wait a second. I’m not the one who wants to get into Jazz. Talk to HER about her future friends. > [@Neurotik](#): > > Again, you’re a fucking moron. This is a surprise? > [@](#): > > You left out trombone. No, I was just talking about the REAL instruments. And Twisty, I’d thank you for your supportive statement had it not been that we (meaning “I”) have already determined that Glen Miller’s work wasn’t Jazz. Shit, you people are clueless enough to think that Brittany Spears records Rock ‘n’ Roll. :rolleyes: Though my original post was heartfelt, I suppose now I’m just trolling. Oh well. I’ve done worse things in my life. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/26 "2004-04-21T09:52:50Z")
It’s quite obvious from this thread that your opinions and fact are like two small ships passing in the darkness. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/27 "2004-04-21T13:28:05Z")
I may be married to the truth but I ain’t dead. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/28 "2004-04-21T14:37:15Z")
Look, the easiest solution to the problem is to have your daughter learn the sax. It’s a fairly easy conversion from clarinet. My brother did it. The other option is to have your daughter play a few jazz pieces on the clarinet for the high school band director. The rub here is that she should learn to transpose from alto sax music on the fly because most jazz competitions have a sight reading aspect (at least the ones we went to did) and they most likely won’t have a clarinet piece in the arrangement. So if she learns to sight read the correct notes on the clarinet and does this in front of the director, he/she might be much more willing to give her a shot at taking an alto seat. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/29 "2004-04-21T17:08:58Z")
[whining voice] (as if I had stopped using it at any point in this thread) But I just bought her a new clarinet! [/whining voice] ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/30 "2004-04-21T17:38:13Z")
Well, start teaching her how to transpose. 🙂 The school probably has a loaner sax she can use. And she can still play clarinet in normal band. Until she gets good enough to start her own quartet and hang out in smoky bars where you can get hookers and such. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Rieux](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Dr.Rieux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Rieux)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/31 "2004-04-21T18:56:42Z")
But isn’t a soprano sax just a brass clarinet, anyway? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AV8R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AV8R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AV8R)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/32 "2004-04-21T22:34:48Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Well, start teaching her how to transpose. Ah yes, I can see the conversation now… **dropzone:** _Ok, it’s very easy. Say the chart is written in the concert key of F. Since the alto sax is an E[sup]b[/sup] instrument, eveything is written a major 6[sup]th[/sup] higher than it sounds, so for this tune it will be written in the key of D. But you don’t need to worry about that, because the clarinet is a B[sup]b[/sup] instrument, where everything is written a major 2[sup]nd[/sup] higher than it sounds. So, to read the alto sax part, just remember to remove one sharp from the key signature (or add one flat if you are reading a part in the key of C, or if there are any flats in the key signature), and then play everything a perfect fifth lower than written. So for this chart you’re in the key of G. Get it?_ **Daughter:** _…umm… Can we sell my clarinet? And get a color TV, instead?_ ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/33 "2004-04-21T22:44:38Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Though my original post was heartfelt, I suppose now I’m just trolling. Oh well. I’ve done worse things in my life. That may very well be, but it’s the last time you’ll be trolling on the SDMB. I hope that’s well understood. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/34 "2004-04-22T02:34:33Z")
As someone who works in a high school music program, let me repeat that the fact of the matter is, most arrangements available for band conductors don’t have clarinet parts. Flute, and clarinet get dropped for the sax if a kid wants to be in the jazz band _most_ of the time. And, as far as teaching improv, it certainly happens, but try getting a band of 15 minimally to moderately talented kids to improve over a chord chart together for every song they play. It just ain’t gonna happen. Big band arrangements afford kids of a broad ability to play together, and to improvise as well. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/35 "2004-04-22T13:29:10Z")
> [@Coldfire](#): > > That may very well be, but it’s the last time you’ll be trolling on the SDMB. I hope that’s well understood. And once I realized what I was probably doing it you will note I returned to my heartfelt, if annoying, whining. But these people are so damned serious about, oh, everything, like you are about motorcycles and international banking, that it’s mighty hard to resist poking them to listen to them squeal. And would I have gotten that warning if I had not mentioned suspicions of trolling my own self? If I hadn’t said anything, had I continued ripping on trombones as medieval fart machines with no place around modern instruments or claiming that Wynton Marsalis is only touted as a great talent because he is being compared with Kenny G, would you have had a clue that I was trying to get a rise out of people in an attempt to keep my thread alive after a dozen people read the original post and said, “Yeah, that’s how it is. You don’t have much choice in the matter?” Finally, can you tell me which of my statements are reasonably accurate reflections of my beliefs and which are not? Because without that you would only be guessing, a piss-poor way to make judgements. To make it easier for you I could annotate all of my future posts, though I thought they were overloaded with asides and footnotes as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/36 "2004-04-22T14:37:51Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > And would I have gotten that warning if I had not mentioned suspicions of trolling my own self? Hard to say for sure. Perhaps you shouldn’t make things so easy on me the next time around. > [@](#): > > Finally, can you tell me which of my statements are reasonably accurate reflections of my beliefs and which are not? I haven’t got a fucking clue. > [@](#): > > Because without that you would only be guessing, a piss-poor way to make judgements. Not if the poster admits they’re trolling. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/37 "2004-04-22T14:56:30Z")
Good lord, **Coldfire** , you are being a pain in the ass, which encourages me to be a pain right back, being in no mood today for being bullied. Your threats over this silly thread are excessive and misplaced. You are using a howitzer to swat a mosquito. You have other weapons at your disposal than the threat of banning, such as the gentle chiding that you know would work _since you know me as a poster,_ and a simple observation of the thread would show that I had already switched back to whining and was, in fact, letting the thread die a natural death since I had said all I had to say on the subject. Yet you chose to come stomping in with your threats and your tinpot bluster. Totally inappropriate. I expect better from you. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/38 "2004-04-22T15:06:19Z")
Well, shit, **dropzone** , what can I say. I received about a dozen e-mails reporting your dumbass post in which you admit to trolling, so I decided to check it out. Making sure you got the message, and ensuring no one else reports this shit anymore, I decided to post a mild but deserved warning. You could have said something like “sorry, won’t happen again”. Fuck, you could have refrained from commenting, for God’s sake. It would not have mattered. But no, you had to _debate_ it. Like there’s somehow a good reason to troll on this message board, one that I should have clearly known about, _because I know you as a poster_, and in failing to do so, I’m obviously a powerhungry idiot going after a mosquito with a chaingun. Excuse me for doing my job. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/39 "2004-04-22T16:20:34Z")
Well, why didn’t you say so in the first place? Now I have to take back bashing you and start bashing the dozen losers who have nothing better to do than to say, “Oh, Lordie! **dropzone** came right out and said that he supposes he has lapsed into trolling by saying bad things about trombones! Ban him! BAN HIM!!!” Sheesh, people, I realize that trombonists are, by definition, lifeless geeks but there is still hope if you put away the slide grease and naked pictures of Tommy Dorsey and went out to buy yourselves a life or at least a different instrument. You might get enough money for one if you hocked that hunk of brass to buy an instrument that didn’t leave the rest of the world sniggering behind your back, though my money is on you buying something even dumber, like a glockenspiel. So, as that is how I REALLY feel about the trombone and its players instead of my usual tolerant amusement that doesn’t include actually saying anything out loud, I suppose I wasn’t really trolling when I said that it wasn’t a REAL instrument. And since I cannot stand Big Band ANYTHING and do not consider the brazen blastings of, say, Buddy Rich’s band Jazz OR worth listening to and, as I am unapologetically self-centered and dismiss any form of music I don’t like, you can take that to mean that all of my other statements reflect my personal beliefs. So point to where I was trolling except where I admitted that saying something snotty about trombones, heartfelt as it may have been, could get more of a negative rise out of people than I usually look for. Jesus fucking Christ, people, are you really that dumb? Or that sensitive about the possibility of trolls infesting the SDMB? Because there are many better examples than me. Losers. Total losers. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904/40 "2004-04-22T16:27:00Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > And, as far as teaching improv, it certainly happens, but try getting a band of 15 minimally to moderately talented kids to improve over a chord chart together for every song they play. You make valid points and remind me of my conviction that there is a special Heaven for music teachers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jazz-band-without-a-clarinet-whoever-heard-of-such-a-thing/240904.md?page=3)