# "A Jewish and Democratic State." What does this mean to Israel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545 "2012-12-19T17:14:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/41 "2012-12-20T17:22:38Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you know how Israel would classify the children, then? Say they were married in Cyprus to avoid a legal refusal and returned, what would the classification be under the millet system? I honestly don’t know. In Judaism generally, as others have said, it is the identity of the mother that counts (except in the more “modernist” denominations like Reform, which allow children of Jewish fathers to be considered Jews if they want). Given that, I would assume they would be considered “Jews”. But again, that’s just an assumption. I don’t actually know. I honestly doubt that preventing interfaith marriages is a major motive for keeping the “millet” system. For one, it has the same “work around” as for secular/athiest Jews (or gays) - get married abroad - so it isn’t very effective at actually preventing interfaith marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/42 "2012-12-20T17:24:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I see, so these ultra-Orthodox view the system as both reinforcing their power over religious matters, and exposing secular Jews to more religious practice, in the hope of inspiring more devotion? Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/43 "2012-12-20T17:39:11Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Well then what’s your definition of “democracy in practice”? I’d say…policies and structures that facilitate a form of government in which all citizens have an equal say in the proposal, development, and creation of the laws they live under, either directly or through elected representatives. A captive group of (involuntary) resident aliens runs counter to that, does it not? > [@brazil84](#): > > Note that “self-determination” and “equal say” can potentially conflict with each other. An Arab in Gaza has self-determination in the sense that he is governed by other Arabs. But he cannot vote them out of office or even criticize them publicly. So he would seem to lack “equal say.” > > On the other hand, an Arab in Israel lacks self-determination in the sense that his leaders are not Arabs. But he still has the right to vote in elections and publicly criticize the government. I meant self-determination in the Atlantic Charter sense of “nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and fair equality of opportunity have the right to freely choose their sovereignty and international political status with no external compulsion or interference.” This doesn’t mean the right to be ruled by the same ethnicity or religion as yourself, though that is often a result. This is informed by my view of a nation as a collection of residents within an arbitrary border, hopefully with some shared values; not an ethnicity or religion. Of course, the idea of self-determination is associated with ethnic groups, as well as a term in philosophy, so it’s a rather confused idea. So, the Arab Israeli has self-determination, but the Arab in Gaza does not. > [@brazil84](#): > > Ok, as you might guess it’s a sensitive issue. Much of the criticism of Israel is biased in the way I described. Sure, no offense taken. > [@Malthus](#): > > In Judaism generally, as others have said, it is the identity of the mother that counts (except in the more “modernist” denominations like Reform, which allow children of Jewish fathers to be considered Jews if they want). But Reform Judaism doesn’t legally “count” as Judaism in Israel, correct? > [@Malthus](#): > > I honestly doubt that preventing interfaith marriages is a major motive for keeping the “millet” system. For one, it has the same “work around” as for secular/athiest Jews (or gays) - get married abroad - so it isn’t very effective at actually preventing interfaith marriages. That makes sense, but if that is a major motive, it may be satisfactory on the level of discouraging a non-zero number of marriages, without the media and political ramifications of an outright ban with no work-arounds. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/44 "2012-12-20T17:47:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But Reform Judaism doesn’t legally “count” as Judaism in Israel, correct? It has no power to do stuff like marriages. Reform Jews are still counted as “Jews” though. But yeah, I’d guess that for the “millet” system the Orthodix rules would apply - hence, a child born of a Jewish mom would be Jewish. But it’s just a guess. > [@](#): > > That makes sense, but if that is a major motive, it may be satisfactory on the level of discouraging a non-zero number of marriages, without the media and political ramifications of an outright ban with no work-arounds. Possibly. I’m just saying that it isn’t very effective, and so presumably not very satisfying to those who wish to prevent interfaith marrages - particularly given the fact that marrying in Cyprus is so well-established (and easy) as a work-around to those having difficulties caused by the system. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/45 "2012-12-20T17:52:59Z")
Is the Cyprus work-around a recent phenomenon? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/46 "2012-12-20T18:11:20Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Is the reason for this because presumably the kids will be raised in whatever the mans faith is? Yes. It’s why my mother didn’t feel the need to convert even though my father’s family took Islam far more seriously than he did. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/47 "2012-12-20T18:14:14Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is the presumption that the children of such a couple would be raised Muslim, thus threatening a Jewish majority, or is it just the good old-fashioned “keep to your kind, and we’ll keep to ours” that pretty much every culture has? Probably the latter. Similarly, most Palestinians would probably not like the thought of their daughters have sex with Jewish boys and depending on the family or how well-known the relationship got, she’d possibly face some rather severe consequences. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/48 "2012-12-20T18:36:51Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’d say…policies and structures that facilitate a form of government in which all citizens have an equal say in the proposal, development, and creation of the laws they live under, either directly or through elected representatives. > > A captive group of (involuntary) resident aliens runs counter to that, does it not? Depends on whether they are considered “citizens” or not. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/49 "2012-12-20T19:32:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Is the Cyprus work-around a recent phenomenon? No, though I don’t know when it began. My only cite for that is that I know it was mentioned in _The Source_, a historical novel by James A. Michener, first published in 1965 (one of the “framing characters”, an Israeli archaeologist, uses it). So it’s been around at least since 1965. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/50 "2012-12-20T21:00:45Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > If you do the math, the trend is really there. > > There is one thing you can see even today, which is that the percentage of Jewish births in Israel declined year after year for decades. But then, about 10 years ago, the trend reversed itself and has been steadily trending in the opposite direction since then. > > Also, the basic reason for the reversal in the trend is something that seems likely to continue into the foreseeable future. According to [Israel National News](http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/159868) > [@](#): > > The Jewish population’s rate of growth in 2011 was 1.8%, similar to the rate in the last eight years. The rate was similar in the 80s, but higher in the 90s, because of the large scale immigration from the former Soviet Union. > > The growth rate of the Arab population was 2.4% in 2011, down from 3.4% in the years 1996-2000. So, Arab population growth rate has declined, but still exceeds the national average. What’s causing it to decline, and what makes you think that will continue? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/51 "2012-12-20T22:11:16Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > . What’s causing it to decline, and what makes you think that will continue? The same thing which has caused population growth to decline everywhere else in the world. I don’t know what it is (I do have some guesses) but there is something about modernity which causes fertility rates to plummet (except among certain ultra-orthodox religious groups). It looks to me like the Arab world is following the same path trod by Europe in the past. i.e a huge fertility boom with the introduction of basic medicine and cheap food availability followed by a massive decline in fertility as more people lead stimulating lives in urban areas. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/52 "2012-12-20T23:12:12Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > You wouldn’t have a problem with Germany being declared a German state, would you? Or Austria declaring itself a German state? There are plenty of states in the world with an explicitly ethnic character. Then why don’t they explicitly say so? - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/53 "2012-12-20T23:24:53Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Then why don’t they explicitly say so? > > - Honesty Germany does explicitly classify itself as the German state. Why do you think they deny citizenship to ethnic Turks and ethnic Arabs who’ve lived there for multiple generations while granting citizenship to people who’ve live in other countries for centuries yet are ethnic Germans. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/54 "2012-12-21T04:14:46Z")
> [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > Why do you think they deny citizenship to ethnic Turks and ethnic Arabs who’ve lived there for multiple generations while granting citizenship to people who’ve live in other countries for centuries yet are ethnic Germans. It seems this is no longer the case, after a reform of the nationality laws in 1999. [From the BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/254688.stm) > [@](#): > > More than half of the seven million foreigners living in Germany would become eligible for citizenship under the new law. They would not have to surrender nationality of their country of birth. At present migrants such as Germany’s large Turkish population are denied citizenship, even though many have have lived in Germany for decades. > > In contrast, ethnic Germans scattered throughout central and eastern Europe are entitled automatically to passports. Under the reform, children born in Germany to long-term residents would be offered German nationality automatically, while migrants would be able to seek naturalisation after living in the country for eight years. > > Applicants for citizenship would have to undergo the naturalisation interview in German, sign a written pledge to the German constitution and be able to support themselves and dependants without government welfare. [Here’s another reference, from the German Foreign Office.](http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/EN/EinreiseUndAufenthalt/Staatsangehoerigkeitsrecht_node.html) > [@brazil84](#): > > Depends on whether they are considered “citizens” or not. If they were not, then we’re back to the Ancient Greek version of democracy, with a small ruling class with a vote, and a larger body of powerless serfs. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/55 "2012-12-21T04:16:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Germany does explicitly classify itself as the German state. > > Why do you think they deny citizenship to ethnic Turks and ethnic Arabs who’ve lived there for multiple generations while granting citizenship to people who’ve live in other countries for centuries yet are ethnic Germans. No, I mean, why don’t they explicitly say, “We are a German democracy” or make reference to the German character of the population? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/56 "2012-12-21T04:25:47Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > No, I mean, why don’t they explicitly say, “We are a German democracy” or make reference to the German character of the population? Starting with their 1913 Nationality Law of the German Empire and States, it appears that they did. Nationality was defined in terms of _jus sanguinis_, blood descent from a German. This was changed by the 1999 law, previously mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/57 "2012-12-21T05:28:20Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Starting with their 1913 Nationality Law of the German Empire and States, it appears that they did. Nationality was defined in terms of _jus sanguinis_, blood descent from a German. This was changed by the 1999 law, previously mentioned. I understand what you’re writing here, but I’m not referring to how Germany defines (and has defined) citizenship and nationality laws. I’m referring to the lack of any explicit declaration by the government that it’s a **German and Democratic State**. Why hasn’t Merkel waddled her way to the podium and pronounced that removing Turkish immigrants in Berlin is done to for the safety and protection of the German majority? When I hear “Jewish and Democratic State” it comes off as it’s a democratic state as long as their is a Jewish majority. Since Jewish can be both an ethnicity and a religion, the statement is curiously vague on whether it refers to former, the latter, or both. Whatever the case may be, it drives a wedge between the constitutionally protected class (the Jewish people) and the gentiles. It is my opinion that other countries do not explicitly declare themselves “Ethnic X and Government Y State” in order to foster diverse immigrants. The reason you’d call yourself a “Jewish and Democratic State” is if all of you want is Jewish immigrants. It would be analogous to putting “White Europeans Only” in superscript under the “Give me your tired huddled masses” plaque on Liberty Island. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/58 "2012-12-21T09:55:45Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If they were not, then we’re back to the Ancient Greek version of democracy, with a small ruling class with a vote, and a larger body of powerless serfs. So what? You got to choose the definition of “democracy in practice.” I’m simply applying the definition you chose. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/59 "2012-12-21T10:33:47Z")
I wonder what would happen if Israel amended its basic law to delete references to Jewish and Democratic while keeping the exact same policies in place. Would there be less criticism of Israel? Somehow I doubt it. By the way, here are the first two articles of the Egyptian Constitution of 2011: > [@](#): > > **Article 1:** > > The Arab Republic of Egypt is a democratic state based on citizenship. The Egyptian people are part of the Arab nation and work for the realization of its comprehensive unity. > > **Article 2:** > > Islam is the religion of the state and the Arabic language is its official language. Principles of Islamic law (Shari’a) are the principal source of legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2012, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545/60 "2012-12-21T11:46:03Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The same thing which has caused population growth to decline everywhere else in the world. I don’t know what it is (I do have some guesses) but there is something about modernity which causes fertility rates to plummet (except among certain ultra-orthodox religious groups). > > It looks to me like the Arab world is following the same path trod by Europe in the past. i.e a huge fertility boom with the introduction of basic medicine and cheap food availability followed by a massive decline in fertility as more people lead stimulating lives in urban areas. If it’s “the usual cause”, that’s normally attributed to birth control and improved women’s rights, plus wealth (that is, non-poverty). The reason wealth is a big factor is based on the generalization that poor people tend to have lots of children as a sort of retirement plan (in addition to having less access to birth control). In any case, I was intriqued by the projection that the Arab population would not eventually be a majority, since I’ve always heard the opposite. I found [one paper supporting this projection](http://izsvideo.org/papers/Demographic%20Trends%20in%20Israel%202010%20Summary%20Update%20Eng,%20RL.pdf). This paper points out several previous prominent projections that Arab population would eventually dominate (or at least, equal), but that these projections proved to be false, generally because they underestimated Jewish population growth (due to both birth and immigration rates) and didn’t foresee Arab growth rate declining. The projection in the above cite is that Arab population proportion would max out at around 41% in 2014 and decline to about 32% by 2050. However it’s based on projected continuing 3% per-annum decline in Arab growth rates. I suspect that decline will tail off, and I’m curious what assumptions would be required to reach Arab population equality. I’m not sure how to set up the equation, so I’d have to run a routine instead. If anyone knows how to calculate this quickly I’d be very interested. My conclusion is that Arab dominance is definitely not a sure thing, and most likely not even the highest probability. The orthodox population is still a fairly small minority. Even with higher growth rates, I wonder how long it will take before it would dominate population growth in Israel. I wonder what has kept this segment from dominating already. Clearly there’s some pressure keeping that from happening (e.g., children growing up and not following their parents’ orthodoxy) or it would already dominate. So, I wouldn’t project orthodoxy dominating Israeli population, at least not without a lot more data. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-jewish-and-democratic-state-what-does-this-mean-to-israel/644545.md?page=4)