# A Kosher pig? With milk gravy? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 27, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270 "2018-03-27T12:32:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/1 "2018-03-27T12:32:15Z")
Here is a story where [a Rabbi says](https://www.jta.org/2018/03/22/news-opinion/rabbi-says-meat-genetically-cloned-pig-eaten-jews-including-milk) that cloned pork may be eaten with milk. He says that since it does not come from a live animal, it isn’t meat. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/2 "2018-03-27T12:58:20Z")
Two Jews, three opinions. Others have opined that it wouldn’t even be acceptable for gentiles, as it would be “eating the limb of the living”. And to clarify, even though all of the articles about this refer to it as cloning, what they’re actually talking about is in vitro tissue. A cloned pig would be a pig, and subject to all of the same laws (secular and religious). ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/3 "2018-03-27T13:09:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And to clarify, even though all of the articles about this refer to it as cloning, what they’re actually talking about is in vitro tissue. A cloned pig would be a pig, and subject to all of the same laws (secular and religious). Yes, I don’t know if the journalist or the Rabbi is a fault, but I suspect the former. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/4 "2018-03-27T13:10:06Z")
Of course, once you’ve decided that vat-meat isn’t halachically meat, you still have to deal with the question of good 'ol [Morris Eye-in](https://www.chabad.org/search/keyword_cdo/kid/16478/jewish/Marit-Ayin.htm). Jewish Law: There’s Always Another Complication. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/5 "2018-03-27T13:23:54Z")
Back to Mrs. Plant (v.2.0) eating fake bacon bits on her salads. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/6 "2018-03-27T14:32:53Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Jewish Law: There’s Always Another Complication. I love these saying. Having been raised Jewish, they speak to me. “Ask not the Jew, for he will say, ‘eh, a little yes, a little no’” It’s an entire culture founded on grey areas. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/7 "2018-03-27T14:39:48Z")
I remember a SF short story on the same subject, with a similar conclusion, although I think they modified pigs to chew cud. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/8 "2018-03-27T14:43:30Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I remember a SF short story on the same subject, with a similar conclusion, although I think they modified pigs to chew cud. [The R-Strain](http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/The_R-Strain)-Harry Turtledove. > [@](#): > > “The R-Strain” is a science fiction short story written by Harry Turtledove and published under the Eric Iverson pseudonym. It was originally published in Analog Magazine in June 1985, and reprinted in the Turtledove collection Departures in 1993. > > The story is set in the near future. A biotech company Genetic Enterprises reveals its latest product: a genetically engineered pig that was a ruminant, hence the name “R-Strain”. This meant that the R-strain would absorb more nutrients from its feed since “cud crewing” allowed better digestion. As a consequence, the pigs would gain weight faster and could be brought to market sooner, earning the farmers a bigger return. > > That immediately engenders a religious and philosophical question: Since the R-strain chews its cud, is it kosher? The company turns to Rabbi Aaron Kaplan to answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/9 "2018-03-28T00:30:05Z")
If a cheeseburger made with soy cheese is verboten because it looks like cheese, there is no way in hell that they would allowr in vitro pork. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/10 "2018-03-28T04:35:16Z")
True. What’s the saying, build a fence around the law? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/11 "2018-03-28T05:22:45Z")
I have read Rabbinic opinions that say the opposite, because since the cell culture comes from a pig, the principal of “that which comes from the forbidden (e.g., in current, non sci-fi usage it would apply to the milk of a sow or a mare) is likewise forbidden.” I’m sure that the debate will take place in earnest when the product becomes more than theoretical. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/12 "2018-03-28T17:24:19Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > If a cheeseburger made with soy cheese is verboten because it looks like cheese, there is no way in hell that they would allowr in vitro pork. Hey, they had soy-cheeseburgers in the dining hall at Yeshiva University. They looked absolutely disgusting, but I saw plenty of people eating them. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/13 "2018-03-29T11:00:13Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Hey, they had soy-cheeseburgers in the dining hall at Yeshiva University. > > They looked absolutely disgusting, but I saw plenty of people eating them. Do they not look like the real thing, to avoid the problem you mentioned upthread? (It sounds to me like you could just wear a sign saying “This is not real cheese” and it would satisfy the requirement, and similar with the topic of the OP.) ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/14 "2018-03-29T15:35:22Z")
I mean, there wasn’t a sign that said SOY CHEESE HERE. It’s just that it was a kosher dining hall and the burgers were definitely meat, ergo the cheese had to be fake. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/15 "2018-03-29T16:36:32Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [The R-Strain](http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/The_R-Strain)-Harry Turtledove. Yup, that’s the one. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/16 "2018-03-29T23:48:39Z")
In case anyone’s interested, in Turtledove’s story, the rabbi decides… That since the new animal cannot reproduce with regular pigs, it’s not a pig at all, and therefore kosher. That said, IIRC, he wouldn’t eat it himself. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/17 "2018-03-30T00:27:08Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > In case anyone’s interested, in Turtledove’s story, the rabbi decides… > > That since the new animal cannot reproduce with regular pigs, it’s not a pig at all, and therefore kosher. That said, IIRC, he wouldn’t eat it himself. Actually, he does eat it. When asked by his wife how it was, he says “I got through it.” And then reflects that the comment reflects the history of the Jewish people. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2018, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-kosher-pig-with-milk-gravy/811270/18 "2018-03-30T11:24:35Z")
If cloned pigs can be kosher, does that mean that you can eat them on Fridays during Lent? They’d be the 21sy century version of Barnacle Geese/Goose Barnacles. Then you can make new Halal animals and maybe artificial bovines for Hindus. I can see an entire industry in “Forbidden Flesh” for all religions\* Of course, then some Marvin Harris-like cultural anthropologist would come along and point out tat al of these clones animals were really a phenomenal waste of resources, and against Optimal Foraging Theory, and we’d all have to go back to our food taboos. \*Would Eve have sinned if she ate a cloned apple?