# A lack of belief is not equivalent to belief **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131 "2008-12-01T03:19:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/61 "2008-12-01T23:37:01Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > What does that have to do with anything? If you have to ask… ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/62 "2008-12-02T00:09:53Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > I don’t really care. I’m pretty sure they’re fantasy, but I’m not going to say I absolutely believe they don’t exist. Just because they ‘might’ exist doesn’t mean I’m packing stakes and garlic whenever I go out. I don’t think there’s enough of a risk to bother. > > You’re confusing possibility with probability. I acknowledge that there’s a possibility of vampires, I just don’t think it’s probable. So much so that I don’t even worry about it. Pretty much the same with god. This is kinda what I was thinking although I think **LB** makes a good point. Do you believe Unicorns exist or do not exist? I don’t think it’s relevant enough to my life to even form an opinion. I don’t care. That’s not the same as “I believe they do not exist.” I think the same can be true of many things including God. Someone could say " I don’t believe in God" and mean I haven’t found any reason for God belief or God disbelief to be relevant to my existence and my day to day life. finding the subtle differences between “I really don’t care”, and I really don’t believe in X may be tricky but personally, I don’t care 😃 I get **LB** s point and I think I believe X does not exist is a definitive statement that makes up a part of our world view/belief system. While “I don’t believe in capital punishment” is clearly a statement reflecting a belief system there may be some room for subtle differences between “I don’t believe in God” and “I believe God does not exist” and they are not the same statement. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/63 "2008-12-02T00:11:05Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Burma Shave. I didn’t even get the joke but I still laughed. I wonder why? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/64 "2008-12-02T00:12:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Test what they claim against the Word, let them live or fall by the sword. Does that mean letting some person decide what constitutes the Word? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/65 "2008-12-02T00:50:02Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Does that mean letting some person decide what constitutes the Word? The person would be the believer acting in the Spirit of God. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/66 "2008-12-02T01:06:37Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The person would be the believer acting in the Spirit of God. OK, does that mean it’s between the believer and God, rather than some other person’s concept of God and God’s will? Does that mean the believer could belong to almost any religion or no religion providing they are sincerely seeking? Does that mean that their path through untruths and partial truths as they continue to seek may be vastly different than yours or mine? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/67 "2008-12-02T01:23:14Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > Exactly. But the moment you go from “I don’t believe in God” to “There is no God” you become an avid [albeit unaware, for many] stamp collector. Right, but wrong and wrong. First, you just said that one single belief = a religion. That seems pretty silly, don’t you agree? Second, “There is no God” is sometimes shorthand for “I know of no decent evidence supporting the conclusion that God exists and know of sufficient evidence against to render the remaining uncertainty in the question irrelevent.” In cases like that, it’s not an unsupported belief - it’s a positive assertion about accumulated and assessed evidence. Just shorthanded. But you _are_ right that when a person makes a positive or negative assertion on the subject, they have distinquished themselves from those who have made assertions that do not commit themselves to one side or the other of the argument. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/68 "2008-12-02T01:29:43Z")
[Sally Forth on this thread](http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq2nTBdJ) ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/69 "2008-12-02T04:01:05Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I get **LB** s point and I think I believe X does not exist is a definitive statement that makes up a part of our world view/belief system. While “I don’t believe in capital punishment” is clearly a statement reflecting a belief system there may be some room for subtle differences between “I don’t believe in God” and “I believe God does not exist” and they are not the same statement. I think the difference here is that my lack of belief does not significantly influence my world outlook. It’s like my belief in vampires. I don’t change how I behave because of my lack of belief in vampires, and I won’t until I’m shown evidence to sway me. Same with god. My lack of belief in god causes me to exclude activities from my life, not include them. My exclusion of god is the same as me not taking stakes and garlic to work every day. The only time I think about it is when I’m forced to by those who do. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/70 "2008-12-02T04:23:47Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > …I don’t change how I behave because of my lack of belief in vampires,… You probably have less garlic and fewer extra wooden stakes lying around than if you did believe in vampires. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/71 "2008-12-02T05:21:31Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > OK, it’s time we did this. [Taken directly from this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10505888&postcount=32) _et seq._ but related to other discussions I’ve had on these boards, my contention here is that it is fundamentally wrong to think that a lack of belief is ever equivalent to belief. > > Belief, by its very definition, is held despite the state of the evidence (present or lacking) relative to its subject: People who believe in young-earth creationism do so despite all the evidence about stellar formation, planetary formation, the fossil record, and the Big Bang; people who believe in intelligent design do so despite all the evidence about biological evolution; people who believe in one or more deities do so despite the total _lack_ of evidence for their existence; and so on. Belief is totally irrational. > > This matters to me because thinking a lack of belief in something is simply a belief in that thing’s negation removes the ability to accept that some people live their lives without any belief at all. I am one of those people and it frustrates me to be pigeonholed alongside people I disagree with: I value rationality not due to some unthinking acceptance or disconnect from reality but because I have examined the alternatives and realized that belief of any sort is incompatible with my own intellectual honesty. It is frustrating for people to tell me what I think and twist my own words around to conclude that I have a belief system. > > So, no, **Larry Borgia** , it is not a picayune point. It is the only way you can understand my whole worldview and why I hold to the philosophies I do. You DO hold beliefs. We all do. You believe in evolution and in gravity and that life is fair (or unfair) and in any number of things with and without conclusive proof of them. One of the characteristics of beliefs is that we take them for granted, assume they are true and represent the way the world is rather than merely the way we view the world. Sorry, but there is no one without ANY beliefs. Your beliefs may be the opposite of those others hold, they may serve you well and be to your benefit, but they ARE beliefs and you DO hold them. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/72 "2008-12-02T13:25:42Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > OK, does that mean it’s between the believer and God, rather than some other person’s concept of God and God’s will? > > Does that mean the believer could belong to almost any religion or no religion providing they are sincerely seeking? Does that mean that their path through untruths and partial truths as they continue to seek may be vastly different than yours or mine? No, it means that it is the Holy Spirit using the sword (Word), He is acting through a believer, but it is God Himself who will deal with this lesser god. The believer just has to surrender to what God wants to do through him. [QUOTE=John 15:5] "I (Jesus) am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. [/QUOTE] Pretty much sums it up. All we are to do is to remain in Him, let His Spirit and power flow through us and we will produce fruit, including casting down lesser gods. We can not do this on our own. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/73 "2008-12-02T14:03:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Test what they claim against the Word, let them live or fall by the sword. Well, according to you, they’re still alive, so their claims must be valid. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/74 "2008-12-02T14:32:59Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > No, it means that it is the Holy Spirit using the sword (Word), He is acting through a believer, but it is God Himself who will deal with this lesser god. The believer just has to surrender to what God wants to do through him. Even in surrendering the believer has to choose what he or she believes is the direction they are being guided toward. They must choose what actions are directed by the spirit and which ones aren’t. We can see lots of examples of people who claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and don’t agree with each other. > [@](#): > > Pretty much sums it up. All we are to do is to remain in Him, let His Spirit and power flow through us and we will produce fruit, including casting down lesser gods. We can not do this on our own. Easier said than done, as Christianity demonstrates. People are influenced by other people and by their own emotions as well as the Spirit. Sometimes a powerful feeling is only that. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/75 "2008-12-02T16:05:46Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > You DO hold beliefs. We all do. You believe in evolution and in gravity and that life is fair (or unfair) and in any number of things with and without conclusive proof of them. Um, no I do not believe in evolution or gravity, I accept them based on evidence. I have no need for belief when it comes to them. > [@](#): > > Sorry, but there is no one without ANY beliefs. Your beliefs may be the opposite of those others hold, they may serve you well and be to your benefit, but they ARE beliefs and you DO hold them. Yes, I do have beliefs, but god is not one of them. I do not believe in god. There is no active belief there. Just because I say I don’t have any belief when it comes to god does not mean I don’t believe other things. Atheism is not a belief. Is it that hard? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/76 "2008-12-02T18:13:16Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well, according to you, they’re still alive, so their claims must be valid. Sorry for the delay, I got caught in traffic, their was a festival honoring Zeus. I didn’t say live or die, or live or fall. I think we can admit that Zeus has fallen. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/77 "2008-12-02T18:16:17Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Even in surrendering the believer has to choose what he or she believes is the direction they are being guided toward. They must choose what actions are directed by the spirit and which ones aren’t. Agreed, except there are sometimes when it is unquestionable the Spirit, as He takes control, giving words you would never speak, or directing your steps down a path you would not take. > [@](#): > > We can see lots of examples of people who claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit and don’t agree with each other. That’s why He gives us His Spirit and His Word, so we ourselves, on a personal level can test to find out if it is from God. > [@](#): > > Easier said than done, as Christianity demonstrates. People are influenced by other people and by their own emotions as well as the Spirit. Sometimes a powerful feeling is only that. Agreed ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/78 "2008-12-02T18:30:58Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Um, no I do not believe in evolution or gravity, I accept them based on evidence. I have no need for belief when it comes to them. Those are beliefs whether you like it or not. A belief is: “Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something” ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/79 "2008-12-02T18:36:22Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > Those are beliefs whether you like it or not. > > A belief is: “Mental acceptance of and conviction in the truth, actuality, or validity of something” :rolleyes: You’re defining the term so widely that practically anything a human thinks is a belief. This definition doesn’t allow for distinctions of different kinds of belief, and renders any discussion about belief moot. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131/80 "2008-12-02T18:39:17Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > :rolleyes: You’re defining the term so widely that practically anything a human thinks is a belief. This definition doesn’t allow for distinctions of different kinds of belief, and renders any discussion about belief moot. Yes, well there is an element of uncertainty and gaps in knowledge regarding even the most elegant of theories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lack-of-belief-is-not-equivalent-to-belief/475131.md?page=5)