# A lame public prayer **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 15, 2002, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415 "2002-03-15T05:17:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/21 "2002-03-16T14:25:25Z")
amarinth, I think I see your point. I think it’s difficult to judge what people are thinking in this area - in _my experience_, people rarely discuss these views. In my local paper today there’s an interesting article (in the religion section) about how people determine how “religious” they, and other folks are. (They even interviewed an _atheist - I was shocked!_) One of the criteria the writer had was “how often you read the Bible”. This kind of “Christians only” attitude is prevalent here in the Bible Belt. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/22 "2002-03-16T20:15:50Z")
\*\*amarinth wrote: In my experience, that assertion is far more likely to be made by those who are not Christan than by those who are. The “name above all names” is a paraphrase from Philippians 2:9, and I have heard that phrase used to close prayers many times in prayers so I do see it as being used with one God in particular. Also I do not automatically think of it as being used to sanitize the prayer for those who may be Christian (however, I was not at the even that kellymccauley attended and I can see someone making a deliberate choice to use that phrase for such reasons.)\*\* Whoops! My bad! I should explain… When I said, _My personal experience shows otherwise._, I was referring to my personal experience of more than one Deity. It has been my experience that most Christians (if not all) want to distill all Gods down to One God and refer to It as their God. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/23 "2002-03-16T22:25:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by racinchikki \* > \*\*I should think Jesus and God would know who you were praying to no matter whether you said “In Jesus’ name” or “In the name of Him etc.” I prefer the Him, myself, just because I like the way it sounds. \*\* Sort of like an acceptance speech at the Oscars: “And my deepest thanks to all those people who helped me on the way up. You know who you are.” Well, yeah, _they_ may very well know who they are, but your public acknowledgement is completely meaningless without the names. I’m not a believer myself, but if “They who know who they are” do exist, might they not be wondering, “If **racinchikki** is sincere, why not call me/us by name? Ashamed?” Anyway, for those of you who do believe, read Matt. 6:5-6. The Boss said not to do it in public. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/24 "2002-03-17T02:07:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > \*\* > > Anyway, for those of you who do believe, read Matt. 6:5-6. The Boss said not to do it in public. \*\* And he went further and told you what words to say in Matt. 6:9-13. ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/25 "2002-03-17T02:29:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DesertGeezer \* > **Anyway, for those of you who do believe, read Matt. 6:5-6. The Boss said not to do it in public.** This is a bit out of context, as Matthew 6:1 introduces the topic “Beware of practicing your piety before others **in order to be seen by them** …” > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by racinchikki_ > **I should think Jesus and God would know who you were praying to no matter whether you said “In Jesus’ name” or "In the name of Him etc."** Surprisingly not everyone agrees with this. I recently visited a friend who is a member of a Holiness church - he explained that one issue people get worked up about is the wording for baptism. Traditionally most churches have used the trinitarian formula. But his church is adamant that people must be baptised in the name of Jesus, and that you can’t just assume it is implied by “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” [Here](http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstudies/name.htm) is a page along those lines. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Philote_ > **A Boy Scouts’ troop is a different story, however, and if it really is the case that they give open-ended prayers like that for any reason other than to add emphasis to the Name of God, I find that really surprising. The Boy Scouts are a declared Christian group; I don’t see why there would be any need for euphemism in a group like that.** Cite? It may be true, but my experience was that the prayers and such were vaguely monotheist. Depending on what church sponsored the particular troop, it might veer more heavily into the Christian. But while I was oblivious at the time, I don’t recall anything that would exclude Jews or Muslims. I believe there were even some Hindus and Buddhists now and then, although they were probably not the hypersensitive sort. I always understood the reference to the Great Scoutmaster of all Scouts to be an adaptation of the Great Spirit of some American Indian tribes. It would be interesting to hear if any phrasing like this is used in other English-speaking countries. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/26 "2002-03-17T02:50:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dqa \* > \*\*This is a bit out of context, as Matthew 6:1 introduces the topic “Beware of practicing your piety before others **in order to be seen by them** …” \*\* So you would practice piety before others in order not to be seen be them? Of course you can argue that a public prayer is for the purpose of a “great coming together.” I must say though, that when you consider the controversy that surrounds public prayer, I have my doubts about that. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/27 "2002-03-17T03:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philote \* > \*\* > A Boy Scouts’ troop is a different story, however, and if it really is the case that they give open-ended prayers like that for any reason other than to add emphasis to the Name of God, I find that really surprising. The Boy Scouts are a declared Christian group; I don’t see why there would be any need for euphemism in a group like that. Then again, never having joined Boy Scouts, I wouldn’t know how much emphasis they place on the Christian aspect of their activities. \*\* I have to correct this . The Boy Scouts are not a Christian organization. They require a belief in “God as you understand him” , but no more. They (and the Girl Scouts) often use fairly non-specific prayers- they won’t say a specifically Christian or Jewish or Muslim grace for example,but one that simply expresses thanks for the meal without being tied to any one religion Doreen ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/28 "2002-03-17T03:42:24Z")
See, this is why it bothers me as a Christian that some Christians make such an issue out of public prayer. Any prayer that’s inoffensive enough to be used in a secular public setting is almost certain to be near-totally meaningless. By fighting over the issue, we only succeed in making ourselves look bad to the people we most want to reach. If you want to fight for your faith, pick a battle that _matters_, people. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/29 "2002-03-17T05:32:34Z")
\*\*DesertGeezer wrote: I’m not a believer myself, but if “They who know who they are” do exist, might they not be wondering, “If racinchikki is sincere, why not call me/us by name? Ashamed?” Anyway, for those of you who do believe, read Matt. 6:5-6. The Boss said not to do it in public.\*\* I think this posting perfectly illustrates the point uderlying th OP; most people can’t seem to think outside of the Christian theological paradigm. You’re either an believer or a non-believer. What about those of us who “believe” in the J/C/I God (in other words, acknowledge His existence, but simply don’t follow his rules) but follow other gods? Many Christians would say “you’re following the same God, you just call Him by a different name” If that’s the case, why are the rules of the world’s many religions so different, especially on fundamental points such as number of gods, the necessity of salvation, how to worship and what the afterlife is like? ---
**Author:** ![Largo62](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/45deac/32.png) [@Largo62](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Largo62)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/30 "2002-03-17T05:47:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dqa \* > \*\*This is a bit out of context, as Matthew 6:1 introduces the topic "Beware of practicing your piety before others **in order to be seen by them** … Read it again. What you call context is a whole sermon. But the wording is quite specific in verse 6 _ **"…enter into thy closet, and when thou has shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward the openly."** _ It isn’t just about practicing piety before others. It says directly and specifically, do it in a private place with the door closed. How is that out of context? Hey, it’s your religion (or you argue as if it is), it isn’t mine. However you take it, having a prayer at a rodeo seems like “practicing your piety before others” to me. Do what you think best. Go with verse 5 and ignore verse 6. How’s that for out of context. ---
**Author:** ![struct](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f0a364/32.png) [@struct](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/struct)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/31 "2002-03-17T09:23:07Z")
It’s worth emphasizing again that while the Jewish and Islamic notions of God are extremely similar, the Chrisitan notion of the Trinity separates it from the other two major Western Hemisphere religions. Jews and Muslims **do not** believe in the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, although Jews will acknowledge (some more reluctantly than others) that Jesus was a Rabbi, and IIUC, Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet. Jewish mysticism does have something of a notion of a “Holy Spirit” but I’m pretty sure that the idea of a divine power literally possessing oneself is strictly Christian. I don’t know what the case is in Islam but I suspect that it’s similar. ---
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2002, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/32 "2002-03-17T15:34:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by c\_carol \* > \*\*See, this is why it bothers me as a Christian that some Christians make such an issue out of public prayer. Any prayer that’s inoffensive enough to be used in a secular public setting is almost certain to be near-totally meaningless. By fighting over the issue, we only succeed in making ourselves look bad to the people we most want to reach. If you want to fight for your faith, pick a battle that _matters_, people. \*\* I’d like to react to this on two levels: First, if you think it’s appropriate to “reach out” to non-Christians via public prayer, think about how you would feel if the roles were reversed. Say you went to a movie theatre but before the show, a Shaman came out, dressed in a robe and funny hat, and asked all to bow and offer praise and thanks to Kuku, giver of life? Most Christians I know would proabaly walk out, complain indignantly, maybe even orgainze a boycott. My point would be that, here in America, keeping religious things seperate from secular gatherings works. Secondly, it’s clear to me that Christians can’t get along with each other - it amazes me to think they have any hope of reaching out to us heathens. When I drive to work each day, I pass a section of road that’s maybe 2-3 miles long that has six (count 'em, six) different churches all claiming some kind of allegiance to Jesus Christ (Episcopalian, Church of Christ, Latter Day Saints, etc.). (The Baptists have the fanciest, they got a double gymnasium, recording studio, food court, and auxillary wedding chapel with banquet hall.) All these churches strike me as a tribute to the historical divisiveness within the Christian faith. Christians can’t even get together under a single creed - the idea that a public prayer could be construced to include all believers, let alone appeal to us heathens - is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2002, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/33 "2002-03-18T00:01:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kellymccauley \* > \*\* > > Ah, I think Bull Riding (and Nascar) continues to be a very dangerous sport. Why do tragedies happen at the events where god’s protection is routinely envoked? Maybe god doesn’t care? Isn’t listening? \*\* We could go into this debate but that we be a total hijack and I’m sure it’s been debated here before. Tragedies are a part of life and if there were a concrete explanation I’m sure you wouldn’t be asking the question. > [@](#): > > \*\* It’s clear to me that Christians can’t get along with each other - it amazes me to think they have any hope of reaching out to us heathens\*\* I don’t know what your trying to say here but that is a rather wide judgement call. The truth is some people don’t get along with other people, no matter what religion they are. So if you see Christians not getting along you automatically say it’s because they are Christians? As for you being a heathen, if there is any hope of anyone reaching out to you, you’d have to be willing to listen, and that would mean not judging the person who is trying to reach out to you. ---
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2002, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/34 "2002-03-18T04:35:22Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* > We could go into this debate but that we be a total hijack and I’m sure it’s been debated here before. Tragedies are a part of life and if there were a concrete explanation I’m sure you wouldn’t be asking the question._\* Well, it’s my thread - feel free to go into it if you want. My questions were, of course, rheorical, and intended to enforce my own point of view - that there’s no god, or, if there is, maybe he doesn’t care. The sign on the door said “Great Debates” didn’t it? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by dreamer_ > \*\* > I don’t know what your trying to say here but that is a rather wide judgement call. \*\* True, but consider the context - I was talking about reaching out through the use of a public prayer. The fact that such a prayer has to be watered down to be nearly meaningless (to suit the Christians, not us unbelievers) makes it a poor “outreach” effort. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by dreamer_ > \*\* > So if you see Christians not getting along you automatically say it’s because they are Christians? As for you being a heathen, if there is any hope of anyone reaching out to you, you’d have to be willing to listen, and that would mean not judging the person who is trying to reach out to you.\*\* I didn’t “automatically” say anything. Just offered the observation that Christians can’t agree on some of the most fundamental features of their religion. And I think I’ll drop the comments about “reaching out” - I didn’t view the public prayer that way anyway, I was just reacting to c\_carol’s comment. ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2002, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415/35 "2002-03-18T05:26:04Z")
**kellymccauley** First of all let me say I’m impressed with your character and I’d be happy to debate this with you. I reread your first post and see that you are an athiest but curious about religion. My first question is do you really NOT believe in God?? Because you said \*maybe God doesn’t care or isn’t listening? \* - so to me that says there might be some kind of doubt in your mind as to your complete athiesm. It’s not like anyone can prove God one way or the other, but even an inkling of interest can open up a mind to understanding. > [@](#): > > \*\* Why do tragedies happen at the events where God’s protection is routinely envoked? Maybe God doesn’t care? Isn’t listening? \*\* Why do tragedies happen at any time? And why do they NOT happen sometimes? Really the only answer I could come up with is that we live in a world of uncertainty. We expect the sun to come up tomorrow and to make it back home to our warm beds at night only to do it all over again the next day. But what happens in between is either fate (if you believe that way) or random chance. God never said anywhere that if you pray for something it’s guaranteed to happen, or not happen. He just said to pray and believe, and if you live in his will then what is best for you and your life, will happen. Now we could argue all day long about what’s good for your life or mine, but how do we really know what lessons we need to learn to become better people? If that is what we are striving for. I honestly can’t say I know what the meaning of life is, or what the purpose of my own life is. But I know there’s purpose for everything and that one day I will know and understand. I know for me and my life God does care and is listening, and I believe he’s the same for me as he is for all of us, it’s those that \*want to know him \* who will be able to see his ways and works in the world for what they are. He doesn’t force anyone to open the door and let him in. But he is always knocking, waiting and watching, and will never turn away. I guess what I’m saying is it’s up to you to find out the truth about God, that is if you want to know. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lame-public-prayer/98415.md?page=1)