# A Lawyer Says Abstinence Should Not Be Taught in School? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2000, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337 "2000-12-06T18:22:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/81 "2000-12-08T20:05:11Z")
If kids really want to be scared straight about the evils of sin, they can always go to one of those [“Hell Houses”](http://www.alccdenver.com/) that spring up at Halloween. Among lots of other truly horrific things, they show “a homosexual dying from AIDS,” showing not only the evils of sex, but of homosexuality to boot! It’s two-for-one day at your local church-sponsored haunted house… :rolleyes: Esprix ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/82 "2000-12-08T20:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > In all fairness lawyer dude, it seems like your not very observant or your just plain ass blind but the info was posted by Aeryn above. Did you think I made it up or something? When I posted my question, Billy, **you** had not posted the information, or confirmed that Aeryn’s link was relevant to your allegations. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by myself_ > Well, now it’s tomorrow, Bucko. Did you get that information, or should we write this thread off as more of your misinformed nonsense? Upon review, I would not say this qualified as “misinformed nonsense.” I would say “mischaracterized” would probably be more accurate. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/83 "2000-12-08T20:07:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > **Anyway, that was alot of reading on your cite. What I gathered was that they preaching to the choir so to speak instead of ones that really might go to jail am I understanding that right?** Yes, and that the conclusions of that approach ‘working’ to disuade kids from a life of crime were faulty. Further, that a balanced approach, vs. ‘let’s scare’em’ **did** work. \*\*Bill, \*\* unless your children never go outside, never read any books or watch TV, there **will** be some ‘mixed messages’ about sex. Regarding what specific rights you have as a parent? well in my state/school district, the materials and information used in the sex ed classes are always available to be viewed by the parents, **before** the classes are taught. If I wished that my son not be included in the sessions, there was a simple form for me to fill out and he wouldn’t be there. I would suspect the same kind of thing is available in your state as well. So, the set up is: we all seem to want to reduce: 1. Unwanted teen pregnancies 2. STD’s among the teen population SOME also seem to want to 3. Reduce the number of teens engaging in sexual behavior (frequency) 4. Advance the age of first sexual experimentation among teens. Data exists that suggests the balanced approach discussed here does significantly advance the first two aims, but admittedly does not effect points 3 and 4. The same data, however, also suggests that the scare tactics and abstinance only programs do **not** reduce points 1 &2, nor do they have any effect on 3 & 4, either. Absent any other suggested program, it seems prudent, that since we all agree that # 1 and 2 are things we wish to accomplish and one of these approaches actually works with that, that we should use that approach, especially since the other approach doesn’t seem to work for \*\* any\*\* of the objectives. ---
**Author:** ![Wildest\_Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/84 "2000-12-08T20:16:02Z")
Ben, Rape is horrible thing. If people would pratice Christ’s teaching(even if not Christian) of Love thy neighbor as thyself), then we wouldn’t have rape. The rest of your post made absolutely no sense to me. You want to teach kids anal sex…what? Dogsbody, Thanks for the nice words I try to raise my kids as good as possible. See I have two pretty girls so I am very concerned about this topic. I mean heck I remember what it was like when I was a boy in puberty. Sheesh I wish I could lock my girls up until get married. Anyway I going to make sure that I am cleaning my guns when guys come over to see my girls. And I think I will even tell em if you hurt my daughter in anyway, I don’t care how much trouble I get in but I am going to hunt you down like the Arnond did Sarah Conner did in the Terminator GOT IT. My daughters are going love me for that huh. 😉 Anyway I understand alot parents have kids that shouldn’t be parents vicious circle huh? As a way of finding out what parents do and don’t want the kids taught about sex. Why not have the parents sign a form telling the school not to teach their kid sex ed? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/85 "2000-12-08T20:31:25Z")
**wring** > [@](#): > > Data exists that suggests the balanced approach discussed here does significantly advance the first two aims, but admittedly does not effect points 3 and 4 [delaying onset of first intercourse, reducing number of partners/frequency] Sorry, but I don’t think that was borne out by the studies I’ve cited. “Prevention programs that include information about delaying intercourse and about contraception can _delay the onset of intercourse, reduce the frequency of intercourse, and decrease the number of teens’ sexual partners_” “In fact, six studies showed that sex education lead either to _a delay in the onset of sexual activity or to a decrease in overall sexual activity._” “overwhelming majority of studies over time, despite various methodologies and country of study, found no evidence that sex education encourages sexual experimentation or increased activity. If any effect was observed, it was virtually always _delayed sexual intercourse_ or increased effective use of contraceptives, including condoms.” * * * _Mithras the Sun-God Is a solar myth they say, But the Gnostics know He obeyed the crow And he killed that bull one day._ ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/86 "2000-12-08T20:38:48Z")
I think, **Bill** that the thing that frightens me the most about that last post of yours is how much you sound like my father. Well, except that he never had to threaten anyone, and the whole Christian thing. 😉 I think that, rather than locking them away or threatening any boy they go out with, though, that you should try _trusting_ them. Trust that they believe in the values you have instilled in them as they were growing up, and that they’ll live by them as adults. And as both wring and I said, you **can** choose not to have your kids educated about sex by the state. I presume most states have such programs; if not, I imagine that we’d have heard about the ACLU case on it by now. 😉 😃 ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/87 "2000-12-08T20:41:16Z")
Oops, I sit corrected, sorry **Gaudere** , so \*\* Bill\*\* re- read my above post to say that ONE approach has a positive effect on \*\*all \*\* objectives, and the other doesn’t. Saw your latest posting, **Bill** - um, actually what you’re suggesting is what is \*\*in \*\* effect, most certainly in my state, one other poster’s state, and most probably yours, as well. Now, you see, if you get the information first **before** you start believing your radio shows, you won’t get so riled. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/88 "2000-12-08T20:41:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\* > Rape is horrible thing. If people would pratice Christ’s teaching(even if not Christian) of Love thy neighbor as thyself), then we wouldn’t have rape. \*\* Yeah, and if everyone were driven by intellectual curiosity, we wouldn’t have schools. What is your point? > [@](#): > > \*\* > The rest of your post made absolutely no sense to me. You want to teach kids anal sex…what? \*\* I never said anything of the sort. What I meant is that you have promoted abstinence-only education on the grounds that abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control, and the only 100% effective way to prevent STDs. But there are two problems with that: 1. Abstinence isn’t really 100% effective, so your argument is based on a falsehood. 2. Once you admit that abstinence isn’t so special, you find that several other methods of birth control might compare favorably with it. If your concern is with preventing STDs and pregnancy, why not teach kids that masturbation is ok? For that matter, why not teach them to watch each other masturbating, and to put off actual sex for marriage? Just out of curiosity, what is your objection to teaching kids about anal sex? I’m not advocating it by any stretch- it’s just that in terms of what you’ve talked about thus far, you’ve voiced no objection (AFAICT) to sex ed which would automatically exclude anal sex ed. Also, do you feel that schools should be teaching kids to abstain from sex even within marriage? After all, most of the time, most married couples are using birth control. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/89 "2000-12-08T20:44:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* > Talk all you want about why abstinence-only education _should_ work, but everyone else is telling you why it _doesn’t_ work. When are you just going to admit that you’re wrong? \*\* Wildest Bill, you said that you didn’t understand any of my post, except for the part about rape. What part of the section quoted above did you not understand? What can I do to clarify these issues for you? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/90 "2000-12-08T20:48:15Z")
[hijack] What is frottage? [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/91 "2000-12-08T21:02:49Z")
Rubbing against one another while fully clothed. (Sometimes practiced by creepy guys on the bus.) ---
**Author:** ![Wildest\_Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/92 "2000-12-08T21:14:06Z")
\*Originally posted by Ben \* > [@](#): > > Yeah, and if everyone were driven by intellectual curiosity, we wouldn’t have schools. I agree with this. All I wanted to do when I was kid was play and sleep late. I never said anything of the sort. What I meant is that you have promoted abstinence-only education on the grounds that abstinence is the only 100% effective form of birth control, and the only 100% effective way to prevent STDs. But there are two problems with that: > [@](#): > > 1. Abstinence isn’t really 100% effective, so your argument is based on a falsehood. I think you are reaching this one Ben. Think about it if you taught a girl all day long about how to put condom on a dude I can bet money the rapist isn’t going to let her put one on him. “Excuse me Mr. hard up loser rapist dude before you rape me will please put on a condom.” > [@](#): > > 1. Once you admit that abstinence isn’t so special, you find that several other methods of birth control might compare favorably with it. If your concern is with preventing STDs and pregnancy, why not teach kids that masturbation is ok? For that matter, why not teach them to watch each other masturbating, and to put off actual sex for marriage? Man dude what kink of weird liberal crap is this. Are you trying to shock me? You want teachers to teach kids how to masturbate and watch each other. You have got to be just messing with my head. > [@](#): > > Also, do you feel that schools should be teaching kids to abstain from sex even within marriage? After all, most of the time, most married couples are using birth control. Nope. Sex in marriage is awesome cause you don’t **have** to use a condom. Let’s be honest sex with a condom isn’t that great of sex for the guy. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/93 "2000-12-08T21:19:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > I think you are reaching this one Ben. Think about it if you taught a girl all day long about how to put condom on a dude I can bet money the rapist isn’t going to let her put one on him. “Excuse me Mr. hard up loser rapist dude before you rape me will please put on a condom.” > \*\* Um, boy, Bill, where the heck did I put my clue-by-four? \*\*Pre-marital Sex and Rape _are not the same thing_! In no wise does teaching a girl how to put a condom on (or a boy, for that matter) are you teaching them to protect themselves from getting a STD through rape. You’re changing the terms of the discussion, and I for one am not going to stand for this. Ben isn’t reaching. You are. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/94 "2000-12-08T21:20:07Z")
Aargh! Preview preview preview… ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/95 "2000-12-08T21:22:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Think about it if you taught a girl all day long about how to put condom on a dude I can bet money the rapist isn’t going to let her put one on him. “Excuse me Mr. hard up loser rapist dude before you rape me will please put on a condom.” [hijack]There was in fact at least one case I know of where the woman begged her rapist to put on a condom, and he did. The rapist’s lawyer tried to argue (unsucessfully, I believe) that the sex was consensual becuase they guy wore a condom at her request. I suppose you could tell the rapist you had AIDS or something to induce him to wear a condom–better than nothing. I doubt it would make the guy not rape you, though; from what I’ve heard that’s an ineffective tactic.[/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Wildest\_Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/96 "2000-12-08T21:28:59Z")
Hold on Dogsbody, He was saying abstinence is a falsehood because of rape can spread sexually transmitted disease. What I was saying that abstinence only or abstinence with sex ed(showing the importance of condoms) are not going to help in a rape situation. In our skydiving analogy a rapist is kinda of like some whaco jumping besides you and cutting your cords that hold your chute. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/97 "2000-12-08T21:30:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\* > I agree with this. All I wanted to do when I was kid was play and sleep late. While this is no doubt true, you still haven’t answered my question. How many times do I have to ask a simple question before you answer it? > [@](#): > > \*\* > I think you are reaching this one Ben. Think about it if you taught a girl all day long about how to put condom on a dude I can bet money the rapist isn’t going to let her put one on him. “Excuse me Mr. hard up loser rapist dude before you rape me will please put on a condom.” \*\* You’re just putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say that we should teach kids to use condoms so that they can be raped more safely. I said that your claim that abstinence is 100% effective is false. Would you care to address what I actually said? Would you care to even _read_ what I actually said? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Man dude what kink of weird liberal crap is this. Are you trying to shock me? You want teachers to teach kids how to masturbate and watch each other. You have got to be just messing with my head. \*\* Again, either you are just putting words in my mouth, or you played hooky on the day they taught logic. _You_ have made an argument. If that argument is valid, then it applies equally well to abstinence and to watching each other masturbate. Since you only consider the argument to be valid for one and not the other, then you have a double standard, and your argument collapses. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Nope. Sex in marriage is awesome cause you don’t **have** to use a condom. Let’s be honest sex with a condom isn’t that great of sex for the guy. > \*\* Sigh… again, more evasions and distortions. In marriage, one can get pregnant. You maintain that the only 100% effective form of birth control is abstinence. Should married couples abstain from sex, rather than risk having an unplanned pregnancy? Anyway, why don’t married couples have to use condoms? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/98 "2000-12-08T21:34:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dogsbody \* > \*\*Aargh! Preview preview preview… \*\* Actually, I thought the formatting came out nicely in the end. Consider it to be art trouvee… Look, am I just not expressing myself well, or have I asked clear and simple questions which WB has simply failed to answer, and in some cases has even failed to acknowledge? I’m getting an uncomfortable feeling of deja vu… -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Wildest\_Bill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Wildest\_Bill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wildest_Bill)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/99 "2000-12-08T21:38:16Z")
I don’t know what to say after reading Gaudere hijack. Except that it was more evidence that the lawyer proffession is going down the crapper. I didn’t quite understand. What were saying again about women telling rapist they have AIDS? Does it work or not? I think I am going to tell my daughters that one as a last ditch effort to escape the assault. It least the bastard(I’m sorry but if anyone ever raped one my kids they would never get to court)he would have to wonder later if he was going to die or not. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/100 "2000-12-08T21:38:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > You’re just putting words in my mouth. I didn’t say that we should teach kids to use condoms so that they can be raped more safely. I said that your claim that abstinence is 100% effective is false. > > Would you care to address what I actually said? > > Would you care to even _read_ what I actually said? And **Ben** adequately defends his own point. > [@](#): > > Bill said: > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > Nope. Sex in marriage is awesome cause you don’t **have** to use a condom. Let’s be honest sex with a condom isn’t that great of sex for the guy. > > \*\* > > _Ben answered_ > Sigh… > > again, more evasions and distortions. In marriage, one can get pregnant. You maintain that the only 100% effective form of birth control is abstinence. Should married couples abstain from sex, rather than risk having an unplanned pregnancy? > > Anyway, why don’t married couples have to use condoms? Because, Ben, if a married couple is not planning on having a child then it’s clearly the wife’s responsibility to take care of the birth control. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337.md?page=6)