# A Lawyer Says Abstinence Should Not Be Taught in School? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2000, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337 "2000-12-06T18:22:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2000, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/121 "2000-12-09T00:21:07Z")
Well **Bill** , I don’t think our fundamental disagreements about sex could possibly be illustrated any more plainly than by your response to my last post, so I won’t repeat them. But there is one point that you made where I think I can actually reassure you that our views are not so divergent as you think: \*You liberal people want to brainwash kids in to free love and anything goes as long as they are using protection. \* Actually, you’re 100% wrong about this. I (and most other liberals) would never advocate brainwashing kids into “free love” or “anything goes” or any kind of premarital sex. Though this hasn’t got through to you yet, **we don’t even advocate teaching them that premarital sex is okay**. We don’t want to teach them that it’s **not** okay, either: the point is that **schools should not be making any moral pronouncements to kids about what the right sexual choices are for their future lives**. (However, schools certainly should teach basic ethical values such as responsibility, maturity, forethought, consideration, and respect, which are useful in sexual situations as well. And it is certainly valid to emphasize the notion that sex is not a child’s game or an adolescent status symbol, but a serious part of **adult** life.) What schools should be specifically teaching about sex are **facts** about reproduction and sexuality. How conception happens and how it is prevented are factual matters that, as I noted before, have huge consequences for almost all human beings at some point in their lives. Therefore, children should be taught these facts, and also the basic facts about pregnancy, birth, and parenthood (including the facts about the difficulties of teenage parenthood). The issue of whether or not unmarried people should ever put this knowledge into practice is **not** a fact, it is a moral judgement, and I do **not** think that public schools have any business espousing either side of the question. What kids should be told on that score, if anything, is merely that “this is a deeply personal issue that you will have to decide for yourself when you’re mature enough to deal with it.” Similarly, sexually transmitted diseases, homosexuality, and masturbation are **facts** of human sexuality, and children should be taught about them. (And no, of course I’m not advocating explaining to them “this is the way you caress your own genitals, this is the way you insert your penis into a man’s anus”, etc.: only a hyperactive prurient imagination could believe that the “liberal agenda” champions such a thing! What we should say is more along the lines of: - “Most people sometimes touch their own genitals for sexual pleasure. Many people have personal or religious convictions that oppose this practice, and it is not medically unhealthy to avoid it. However, it is also not medically unhealthy to engage in it, and it will not make you blind or insane”, etc. - “Most people feel sexual attraction to members of the opposite sex, but somewhere between 3% and 10% of people are physically attracted primarily or only to members of the same sex. Their sexual activity therefore isn’t the sort of genital intercourse we explained to you last week, but involves other practices such as oral or anal sex. Many people have personal or religious convictions that same-sex sexual activity is wrong. However, it is not considered medically unhealthy, and homosexual attraction is not regarded by psychiatrists as a sign of mental illness or psychiatric disorders”, etc.) This is not “brainwashing” kids into views you don’t agree with; this is merely refusing to brainwash them into the views you do agree with. People can have whatever personal or religious convictions they want to about sex, and we liberal types do not believe in teaching schoolchildren to disown their (or their parents’) personal or religious convictions. But neither do we believe that it’s appropriate to refrain from teaching schoolchildren the basic **facts** about these important subjects. If that still seems too intrusive to you, as other posters have pointed out, in most places you can just exempt your child from sex education classes. Contrary to your belief, liberals **do** respect your right to teach your children about morality as you see fit. We simply don’t think that we have to refrain from teaching other children important facts just because you believe it’s immoral to know them. And as for your claim that “liberal policies aren’t fixing the trouble kids are in,” when will you actually take a look at the studies that **Gaudere** has been knocking herself out providing cites for, that show that thorough and reliable sex-ed classes **do** have the effect of reducing teen sexual activity and corresponding problems such as teen parenthood and STD incidence in youth? As other posters have asked, when are you going to admit that, regardless of the truth of your personal moral convictions, your statements here have simply been wrong about the **facts**? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2000, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/122 "2000-12-09T04:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*Tell ya what ben I will answer your question this way. \*\* I would much prefer it if you answered it in a substantive and honest fashion, but I think that’s too much to hope for. What do you hope to gain by ignoring my questions? You’re clearly not here for substantive discussion, or else you would be, well, you know- discussing! And you’re pretty clearly not trying to convince anyone, since if people make counterarguments and you ignore them, then you’re not going to convince anyone. So why did you even start this thread? Were you hoping for a pat on the back and an affirmation of your good Christian sense? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Everybody is right and I am wrong teaching abstinence only will not be 100% effective in a society that does not put their faith in God. So since America sways further from the Laws of God more everyday, then yes y’all are right and I am wrong. Happy? \*\* Groan… 1. Abstinence-only education works for devout Christians but it won’t work on, say, devout Hindus? I realize that you probably look on all religions other than Christianity with contempt, but can’t you at least recognize that Hindus can keep the laws of their own religion? 2. You are, of course, using the No True Scotsman fallacy. WB, have you ever studied logic or critical reasoning? Are you familiar with the different kinds of logical fallacies? 3. It all depends on how you define “works.” After all, even if your plan got everyone to wait until marriage, they would likely end up with a simplistic and ignorant view of sex- not to mention the fact that they wouldn’t know how to use birth control within marriage. Oh, wait a minute, I forgot- married people don’t need birth control, and _you’re lovin’ it!_ -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/123 "2000-12-09T04:52:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*Hold it a second. Change my analogy about the chute. Make the chute the penis and vagina. (the kids would love this huh) Any way would you rather jump(an exilerating experience see telling the kids sex is good) with a **new** chute or an old used up one that you had no idea where it has been and if it has been taking care of. Well? \*\* You really have some weird ideas about sex, you know that? Let’s suppose someone had slept around a lot and then converted to Christianity. Would you ever have married such a person, with her tattered and soiled va- koff koff I mean parachute? Or is she just spoiled goods to you at that point? Whatever happened to the idea that sex should involve trust? All your examples seem to involve people with ratty genitals rutting in a state of complete anonymity- as opposed to the good Christians (not Hindus, mind you, but good baseball-and-apple-pie Christians), whose genitals are shiny and clean and still have their original tamper-proof seal. I mean, think of it this way. If your wife offers you a bottle of Tylenol, are you going to accept it because you trust her not to have done anything to harm you, or are you going to accept it because it still has the original seal? Why can’t sex be the same way? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2000, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/124 "2000-12-09T05:17:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*Guin, > > If you want to tell your kids it is ok to masturbate, that is your business afterall they are your kids. But I on the otherhand don’t want a govt paid teacher(that I help pay for no less) saying anything about masturbation to my kids. So how about you teach your kids what you want them to know about sex and I will teach mine what I want them know about sex and let the teachers teach them how to read and write. Fair enough? \*\* Why don’t you want your kids learning about masturbation? And why don’t married people have to use condoms? And what if I don’t want my kids learning to read and write? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2000, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/125 "2000-12-09T05:23:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*If anything, they might have to much info. I tell them that guys want one thing from them. And they will say or do anything necessary to get what they want. They will tell you they love you. They will say if you love me, show me. And on and on. I have told them come backs to everyone of a guys tactics to seduce a girl. I told them what situations NOT to get into with a guy to prevent a date rape situation. > \*\* Is this how you treat women? If not, then I think you’re lying when you tell them that guys want only one thing from them. And what about their own sexual desires? How can they learn to deal with their own adolescent hormones if you tell them that sex is a dirty thing that men try to get out of them? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2000, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/126 "2000-12-09T05:34:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > **You don’t mind me turning this around ya do ya? There are lots of kids that don’t have any info at all God. So shouldn’t the school at least mention it to them. Afterall if the atheist are wrong and there is a Hell. Shouldn’t the kids at least have a chance to avoid it? Hey don’t flame me quin started it. 😉** Remember, we have proven that teaching kids about contraception, and giving them honest information about sex, will reduce premarital sex, pregnancies, and STDs, and it is a proven fact that contraceptives work. On the other hand, I don’t think you can prove that the Bible is real; I strongly suspect that you, like most American Christians, cannot even explain its message in a coherent fashion. And, strikingly, the more people learn about Christianity, _even when that information is provided in pro-Christian theology courses_, the more likely they are to become unbelievers. Therefore, unlike sex ed, your scheme would be genuinely counterproductive. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/127 "2000-12-10T17:19:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*If anything, they might have to much info. I tell them that guys want one thing from them. And they will say or do anything necessary to get what they want. They will tell you they love you. They will say if you love me, show me. And on and on. I have told them come backs to everyone of a guys tactics to seduce a girl. I told them what situations NOT to get into with a guy to prevent a date rape situation. > \*\* One other point, **Bill** -after you’ve told your young daughters all about those evil men who will do anything to get into their pants, lie, etc. - exactly how do you expect them to view **you** in the future? Isn’t that a bigger mixed message? All guys lie to women , falsely claiming they love them in order to get them into bed. All women should hold out for marriage… but your mom and I really **do** love each other? Just curious if you’ve followed where your own logical progression takes you. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/128 "2000-12-11T02:16:24Z")
**Wildest Bill** replied to **Guinastasia** : \*Don’t get me wrong, I love my dad, he’s a great guy…but I feel much more comfortable discussing that stuff with my mom, or preferably my friends. I am sure you are going to get some quality info from them (friends). \* Well, if her friends have taken a decent comprehensive sex education course (and paid attention in class), then yes, she will get quality info from them. For your daughters’ own good,\* I hope that in their teen years they too have friends who have been reliably educated about sex, so they have access to some information besides your fatherly lectures about how not to let boys get into their pants. \*(BTW, this does **not** mean that I predict or hope that your daughters will end up having premarital sex or doing anything else sexually that you and their mother disapprove of. In fact, I think their chances of making the prudent decisions you expect of them are better if they’re better informed.) ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/129 "2000-12-11T17:00:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Gaudere** _ > > Rubbing against one another while fully clothed. (Sometimes practiced by creepy guys on the bus.) Actually it’s just rubbing in general, like between a woman’s breasts or on a man’s stomach. And I am not creepy! Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/130 "2000-12-11T17:02:08Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Wildest Bill** _ > > Let’s be honest sex with a condom isn’t that great of sex for the guy. Then you’re doing it wrong. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/131 "2000-12-11T17:15:08Z")
[If you won’t use it for yourself, use it for the rest of us.](http://www.spellchecker.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/132 "2000-12-11T17:18:09Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Wildest Bill** _ > > I tell them that guys want one thing from them. And they will say or do anything necessary to get what they want. They will tell you they love you. They will say if you love me, show me. And on and on. I have told them come backs to everyone of a guys tactics to seduce a girl. I told them what situations NOT to get into with a guy to prevent a date rape situation. Your daughters are going to have such healthy relationships someday, knowing that all men are scum and only want them for sex. Hey, maybe you’ll turn 'em lesbo! :rolleyes: An interesting tidbit I ran across while surfing this morning, from an HIV/AIDS information site, [thebody.com](http://www.thebody.com/aawh/force/aawh10.html): > [@](#): > > Research has clearly shown that the most effective school-based programs are comprehensive ones that include a focus on delaying sexual behavior AND provide information on how sexually active young people can protect themselves. It would seem that teaching both is best. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/133 "2000-12-11T17:27:16Z")
> [@](#): > > An interesting tidbit I ran across while surfing this morning…It would seem that teaching both is best. Er, no offense intended, 'Sprix, but have you read this thread completely? 😉 We’ve established this quite solidly already. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/134 "2000-12-11T17:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wildest Bill \* > \*\*I resent that EJ, > > If anything, they might have to much info. I tell them that guys want one thing from them. And they will say or do anything necessary to get what they want. They will tell you they love you. They will say if you love me, show me. And on and on. I have told them come backs to everyone of a guys tactics to seduce a girl. I told them what situations NOT to get into with a guy to prevent a date rape situation. > > And EJ not be a jerk or anything but it really MY business how I teach my kids about sex. I mean I don’t think the liberal agenda can have it both ways. They do not want God in school at all but they want to teach our kids all kinds of crap they HAVE NO BUSINESS teaching them. > > Just curious, do you agree or disagree parents should have the right to FORBID the govt from teaching their kids about sex? \*\* Jesus Christ Bill, how can you go 'round & 'round like that without getting dizzy and throwing up? Beacsue we’re all about to. We have already said- **sign the form & send your kids to the library during sex ed, so as not to infect them with good information**. And what other kinds of “crap” do schools have no business teaching? I am oh so curious. I have already said that the kind of bullshit you are giving your daughters may very well prevent them from healthy sexual relationships later on. The more you post, the more you scare me. There is no such thing as too much information. Half the story only means that you can’t make informed, rational decisions for yourself. I assume you were resentful of my sarcastic post about your “apology” to Ben. Well, it was stupid and obviously said with sarcasm and only to piss him off. So forget it. Dogsbody, you and me both. Bill, I am sure that our paths will cross again, unfortunately. I hope that when presented with alternate sets of facts, I will continue to have an open mind about many things. Shame that you can’t say the same. ---
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/135 "2000-12-11T17:52:05Z")
And what “liberal” agenda are you talking about? I am not liberal. Is it similar to the “vast right-wing conspiracy” that I’ve heard about? ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/136 "2000-12-11T17:59:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Gaudere** _ > > Er, no offense intended, 'Sprix, but have you read this thread completely? 😉 We’ve established this quite solidly already. We have, my dear, but I doubt **Bill** has. You know how we have to repeat these things several different times, in several different languages, and at several different decibel levels before he even realizes we’re talking, let alone what we’re saying. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/137 "2000-12-11T18:53:24Z")
L’éducation la plus pertinente mentionne l’abstinence et la contraception, et cela a été déjà expliqué. _La formazione più efficace accenna sia il abstinence che la contraccezione e quella già è stata spiegata._ **DIE WIRKUNGSVOLLSTE AUSBILDUNG ERWAEHNT ENTHALTSAMKEIT UND EMPFAENGNISVERHUETUNG, UND DIE IST BEREITS ERKLAERT WORDEN.** ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/138 "2000-12-11T19:33:07Z")
Nice work, **Mr2001**! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/139 "2000-12-12T02:40:31Z")
good evening friends, sorry i am late to the discussion. i was educated in a time when we were taught (in parochial school) that even thinking about sex was sinful. no info on std’s aids was way in the future, and sex was only for married couples, and only for procreation. the feast of life just waiting to be enjoyed and catholic kids never knew when the meal would be served or how to use the utensils. . . ---
**Author:** ![domina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/96bed5/32.png) [@domina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/domina)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2000, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337/140 "2000-12-12T02:50:58Z")
So **Bill** , if schools have no business teaching kids about sex, what business do they have teaching them abstinence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lawyer-says-abstinence-should-not-be-taught-in-school/44337.md?page=8)