Y’all don’t think there is emotional scaring from premarital sex. The girl that gives her viginity to some guy because he said he cared about her so and it was “proof” of her love to him. Then she does it to him and he goes and brags about to his friends the next day and never talks to her again. Oh boy that is some good sex hmmm?
I bet she will remember that sexual experience forever huh. Or the kids that figure out sex with condoms suck compared to sex w/o one then all the other problems rear their ugly heads again.
And I don’t think my drug analogy is crap thank you very much. Kids usually do drugs because of peer pressure well guess what drives many young people into the sack? Same thing. And you still didn’t answer my question would drug use among kids be safer if we taught them some precations and how tos? (yes or no)
I mean how far do ya’ll want the problem to go? Teen pregnacy skyrocketing or 1/3 people having hiv like Africa would that be enough?
Um, yeah, and that’s the only way premarital sex can ever be. Never mind my friends who married the first person they ever had sex with–yep, pre-marital sex. Or the gay teens who speak glowingly of their first lover. Hell, I’ll speak glowingly of my first sexual experience. (Not here, though, you pervs. ) Geez, WB, you sound like you get your idea of what all pre-marital sex is like from AfterSchool Specials. Not all premarital sex is daisies and roses, I’ll agree–but telling kids all the facts seems to make them more inclined to wait, and to be safer if they do have sex. Why not educate kids fully if at its worst it does no harm, and at its best delays first sexual intercourse, lowers the number of parters, and increases safer behavior? This sounds like exactly the sort of thing you’d encourage!
Is it enough to make you belive that ignorance is not the answer? Apparently not.
Oh Bill, I have really been trying to keep cool and be polite, but…
1/3 of people with HIV like in Africa, you say? I will not correct the number because I don’t have the actual one handy, but let me tell you this- The HIV epidemic in sub-Saharan Africa can be linked directly to lack of sex ed as one of it’s major causes. People who don’t get good information will go along with rumors and WAGs, like “having sex with a virgin cures AIDS.”
Your drug reference is crap, as was so eloquently posted by Kimstu, Gaudere, et al.
While there is emotional scarring possible with premarital sex, there is just as much a possibility with post-marital sex. The argument that you shouldn’t do something because of the possibility that something bad MIGHT happen holds no water.
Come on, let’s fight some ignorance, not perpetuate some.
But that’s *not * the attorneys’ position. The attorneys’ position is that the abstinence-only program should not be permitted “on the grounds that it violates the First Amendment clause requiring separation of church and state,” according to the cite AerynSun so kindly provided.
Does the abstinence-only curriculum produce worse results than the abstinence-plus-protection curriculum? Yes, at least according to all the evidence I’ve seen cited here so far. Is abstinence-only a specifically religious-right message? No way, it’s found all over the world, in bunches of cultures with bunches of different religions, including in many societies that we would, um, not be proud of imitating.
The abstinence-only program is probably dumb. Unconstitutional it’s not.
You watch it there, pardner. My first experience of premarital sex was one of the best things that ever happened to me. I will remember that dear woman until the day I die. And neither I nor she went out and bragged about it or refused to talk to each other ever again.
I know WB is insensenate to facts, but for other readers, let me note 1/3 of Africa is not HIV+. Rather, in some southern Africa countries (roughly meaning those bordering South Africa) up to 1/3 of the population is HIV+. Not to trivialize the issue, but there’s a vast difference between some countries having infection rates up to 1/3 of the population and all (or even most) of Africa having such a rate. Not that WB cares for such minor things as accuracy…
So when you say that it is “that simple”, you mean that you’re all for hypocricy as long as you agree with the ends?
No, that wasn’t quite your “question”. You asked (among other things) if we should teach kids how to make crack and how to watch out for fake drugs. How does that make anything safer? As for the other drug points, I agree with Kimstu about it being a bad analogy and what responsibility for this should be.
That wasn’t a very nice on your part. I never said I didn’t care about facts and thanks for clearing that up.
Mojo,
I guess mojo you are not going to give me a yes or no answer are you?
Kimstu,
Let me make sure I understand your drivers ed class analogy before they drive. So you think the kid should wait to get a marriage license before having sex like they have to wait to get a drivers license before they drive a car then yea that’s a good analogy.
Danimal,
Thanks for clearing that up about what the lawyer is fighting for. So inotherwords you think he full of crap to? And I happy that you had such great sex on your first time. But I guess wasn’t good enough to ask her to marry you?
EJ,
I don’t understand this sentence
Why teach them anything then. They MIGHT not get pregnant They MIGHT not get HIV. They MIGHT not OD on that big spoonful of heroin.
Thanks for the props, but I wasn’t trying to make your point there. On some levels I doubt that even what I suggested would help - as someone pointed out, at 16 your attitude is often “Nothing bad will happen to me”. Part of growing up is realizing your own vulnerability. Unfortunately, some have to learn it the hard way. In any event, I think it’s important to show young people everything you can about all the options and all the consequences. We teach them that eating a high-fat diet often results in heart disease but we don’t say “this means that you must exclude all potentially unhealthy foods from your diet” - just that you must introduce responsibility into your eating habits. How is this different from sex?
Tell me, Bill, when does anyone capable of making decisions ever benefit from not knowing all of the facts? I would like present teens with their options and let them make their own decisions. This isn’t even about being “realistic” and saying that “since they’ll do it anyway, we may as well tell them how to be safe”. It’s about providing all the information necessary to make a complete, informed decision.
I don’t see how this supports your position. In your example, it is not sex that is emotional scarring, but how people treat it. And the fact is, your attitude, that sex is bad and that anyone who does it is bad, is a major reason why people treat sex in a manner that ends up hurting themselves and others.
I really don’t see what you think you’re proving here. Just because one analogy between sex and drugs works, that doesn’t mean all of them do.
WB: your posts speak volumes about your attention to facts, actions speaking louder than words. You may have noticed more than one person commenting on this.
WB: *Kimstu, Let me make sure I understand your drivers ed class analogy before they drive. So you think the kid should wait to get a marriage license before having sex like they have to wait to get a drivers license before they drive a car then yea that’s a good analogy. *
Why yes, Bill, you understood me perfectly! And I also believe that kids should be taught that nobody should have sex unless they’re wearing seatbelts! And that everyone who has sex should be legally required to carry up-to-date sex insurance, and to maintain in working order a standard set of electronically activated signals to indicate in advance what sexual actions they’re about to take! And that if you try to have sex with your blood alcohol level higher than .08% the police can come in and pull you out of bed and haul your bare ass down to the station house for a sobriety test, and if you have too many FUI convictions the judge can take away your marriage license! Gosh Bill, I’m really impressed how you picked up on my conviction that automobile driving and sex are exactly parallel activities in absolutely every respect! :rolleyes:
Sigh No, Bill. I wasn’t saying that we should make sex illegal for those without marriage licenses, as we make driving illegal for those without driver’s licenses. I was using a limited analogy between driver’s ed and sex ed to stress that both sex and driving are important, nearly universal, and potentially quite dangerous activities in our culture, and that we need to teach kids about how to handle both of them responsibly.
WB replied to Danimal: *And I happy that you had such great sex on your first time. But I guess wasn’t good enough to ask her to marry you? *
Speaking only for myself, I found that remark incredibly offensive and contemptible. Couples who genuinely care for each other may choose not to marry for a huge variety of reasons; it’s both unwarranted and quite insulting to infer that the reason is that “the sex wasn’t good enough”! I’m appalled to see someone who claims to have high standards of sexual morality taking such a cynical and vulgar approach to sex and marriage. If that’s the sort of moral standard that “abstinence-only” sex ed is supposed to foster, we can do a whole lot better without it.
WB, EJsGirl is absolutely correct. I said that I don’t want any (hypothetical) children of mine to be taught that sex is something to be afraid of. Of Course I expect that any (hypothetical) children of mine will learn to be cautious of sexually transmitted diseases, and therefore will use appropriate methods of protecting themselves from them, but there’s a world of difference between being afraid of something and taking precautions. I mean, I wear a seat belt (to continue the automobile analogy), but not because I’m afraid to be in a car!
Also, I have a real problem with your attitude that “sex is dirty,” particularly since the corollary is “save it for someone you love.” I realize that you have proven particularly immune to examining this sort of question in past threads, but I’d like to know if you honestly believe that something meant to express one’s love (or at least desire) for and desire to be one with another person is “dirty” or “harmful”? (Rape, date rape, and other forms of sexual abuse are, of course, excluded from this conversation by my definition of sex here, but I thought I better clarify.) I don’t think pre-marital sex is such a bad thing, though I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with waiting. Heck, I’m still a virgin, and I’ll be 32 next year. But then, I don’t ever plan to get married; since I’m poly, there are very few congregations and NO states that would acknowledge any marriage I wanted to make.
Finally, I feel this is a very important subject, particularly with high school aged teens - so important, in fact, that I will be taking a training course in February so that I can begin to teach the Our Whole Lives sexual education course at my Unitarian Universalist church!
[reply to hijack]EJsGirl, yes, she can drink out of the fountain. But my parents have the other photographs of her actually doing it.
Oh, and thank you for describing me as a “lovely lady.” I’m blushing.
[/reply to hijack]
Sex was designed by God solely for procreation. This is why it’s a beautiful expression of love when it’s between two heterosexual married people trying to make a baby, but harmful and sinful on all other occasions.
Besides, to quote Alice Walker, “God loves all them feelings. It’s some of the best stuff he did. God likes all the stuff you like - and a lot of stuff you don’t.”
I think their church-state separation argument is full of crap. I don’t object to their effort to remove the abstinence-only curriculum, but I think their reasoning is specious. (According to Aeryn’s link these are two Cornell law professors arguing the case, so I don’t see why you keep saying “he”).
You poor twit. Do you really think any two intelligent adults decide to get married or not based on the quality of the sex?
The point you have managed to miss is that emotionally that pre-marital relationship was a very good thing for me. It is a memory I will always treasure. When she had to break off our relationship, for reasons beyond the control of either of us, she told me that she felt similarly. I hope that she indeed still feels that way.
Not in GD, dude. Even if Bill has decided to make uninformed and crude comments about your life. ::significant look at Bill, clears throat meaningfully::
I agree that there can be situations where premarital sex (even teen premarital sex) can be a positive emotional experience. And no, the goal of a relationship (sexual or not) does not always have to be “getting him or her to marry me and be with me forever”. There are some relationships that are good for certain points of our lives but have a limited lifespan. For me, this does not represent failure. It isn’t even something to be chalked up to a “learning experience”. For me, past relationships work on a “that was the right think for that time in my life and my maturity. That experience has become part of who I am, and I like who I am, so that experience was right to happen”.
I take this attitude to my signifigant other’s past relationships, too. Some people say that having past sexual relationships somehow mars the current relationship or makes the person in question somehow less desirable as a parter. To the contrary, previous sexual experiences have allowed my honey to become who he is today, the man that I love. To say that I wish he didn’t go through such important life experiences would not only be increadable selfish, it would be wrong headed.
In fact, I am glad that we are not dealing with all the confusion that one’s initial sexual experience can bring. We are free from those tentions to cultivate our true relationship.
So no, abstinance is not a universal secular value.
) Geez, WB, you sound like you get your idea of what all pre-marital sex is like from AfterSchool Specials. Not all premarital sex is daisies and roses, I’ll agree–but telling kids all the facts seems to make them more inclined to wait, and to be safer if they do have sex. Why not educate kids fully if at its worst it does no harm, and at its best delays first sexual intercourse, lowers the number of parters, and increases safer behavior? This sounds like exactly the sort of thing you’d encourage!