Ah, bullseye, domina!
At this point, I’m wondering why Bill hasn’t pulled his girls out and started homeschooling them?
Sheesh, there’s a thought- given his vast knowledge of sex, and his masterful command of logic and rhetoric, I can’t help but marvel at the excellent job he will do at teaching them about evolution.
Then again, evolution is no doubt part of the “crap” liberals have no place teaching kids. Right, Bill?
I don’t know why I’m complaining. After all, if Christians keep their kids ignorant, then all the good jobs will (in theory) go to non-Christians. With the biotech revolution coming, I predict that the US will have to import a vast number of life scientists from countries that value reality over superstition.
-Ben
I think that what I find most annoying about this is that Wildest Bill posted to the list today- he’s just not interested in coming back to a thread where he would have to admit he’s wrong. Not to name names, but recently another Christian I was arguing with took the same tack- he was presented with undeniable evidence that he was wrong, and he just floated off to another thread (where he started attacking me, incidentally. :rolleyes:)
What is it with 20th/21st century American Christianity? I feel like frequently I meet Christians who just plain weasel 'till the cows come home. I must say that I don’t really recall meeting many non-Christians who do that sort of thing- certainly not with the sort of shameless abandon that characterizes WB or some of the other weaselling Christians on this list.
I don’t mean this as a knock against all Christians, nor do I mean it as a knock against Christianity as a religion. It just seems that at this time, in America, online, the Christians you meet contain within their ranks the rudest, stupidest, most ignorant, most dishonest, and most hateful people you can meet online. Usually when someone makes himself such a pain in the keester that no one can wait for him to leave- like Pashley, or Califboomer, for example- he’s a Christian. I’m not aware of any atheist (for example) who make a comparable nuisance of himself. Is this because:
-
Something about the Christian Bible encourages this sort of behavior?
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Something about the historical circumstances of American Christianity encourages this sort of behavior?
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I only notice when it’s Christians?
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Dumb Christians are much more likely to go online than dumb non-Christians are?
I tend to feel that part of the problem is that most people in America start out as Christians. If you have no intellectual integrity, then you can’t do the sort of self-examination that is necessary for you to change to something, anything, other than what you were born with. I would also suggest that there is some sampling bias, in that if you’re a dumb Christian, you go to the Pizza Parlor or LBMB to talk about how dumb evilution is; if you’re a smart anything, you go to SDMB. Thus, if I were in a country that was 95% atheists, I might complain about weaselling atheists.
Somehow I find this argument unconvincing, though; at best, I think it’s only part of the solution. Averroes and some of the other Muslims were equally as dishonest and weaselling. Plus, can you really imagine Buddhists stoning a march for religious tolerance as a clergyman cries out “Suffer not a witch to live”? When that kind of thing happens, it’s Christians doing it, not Buddhists.
-Ben
Gee, not too much of a hijack, is it?
Esprix
*Originally posted by Ben *
Just what are you talking about? I admitted I was wrong. In a secular world which we live it is better to teach both abstinence and if you are promiscuous please use a condom(laxex not animal skins). You know it doesn’t seem like rocket science to me. I bet it could be taught in one day. I also have no problem in teaching about the body and the reproductive system. Where I have a problem is when you want to start teaching about things like maturbation and anal sex. That should be left to the parents not to the govt. BTW Ben do you have kids?
I don’t know what you meant by me “weaselling” maybe that I didn’t respond yesterday heh I had a different thought that I wanted to discuss. And since I have responded to your “thoughts” :rolleyes: again, I suppose you owe me an apology buddy.
Whatever, you do to.(you definetely said this to knock Christians). So how dishonest are you? Why don’t you just admit it you don’t like Christians(which makes you hateful doesn’t it). Calling us rude, stupid and hateful(why don’t you look in a mirror buddy?
Yes, it is the word of God that we live by(or at least try to). And he has some rules he gave us that don’t coincide with the worlds rules. Which results in conflict. Where as you have no words that you live(other than science) by because you are here 70 to 80 years and your done. History. Over. At least you hope that it is over.
Rude ignorant and unfounded statements like this are not even worth responding to.
I don’t agree with this especially in todays climate. Lots of people are born into atheistic homes. Take yours for example, are you even going to share the Gospel with your kids to let them make up their own minds or are you going to shove your monkey theory down their throats and say Christianity is a bunch of ignorant, stupid, rude and hateful people. Hopefully your kids will be smart enough to see right through you.
You are not born a Christian. You will go to Heaven however before you reach the age of accountability. After that you have to believe and have faith that God sent his Son to die for your sins. Not everybody is going to believe that. So they won’t get to live eternally. So enjoy you seventy to eighty years here because that is all you got.
Another rude, hateful, and ignorant statement made by someone to claim Christian are(please see above)
If you’re going to educate about sex, you should educate all the way. We’ve shown that the more information teens have, the more likely they are to make good choices. But you want to take that information away. I simply don’t think that all parents are educated or motivated enough to be able to cover all the sexual practices and the accompanying risks that teens need to know about. Let’s say the schools don’t teach anything about anal or oral sex. So this young girl is with this guy, and he’s pressuring her for sex. “No, I don’t want to get pregnant. Condoms don’t work 100%,” she says. “Well, then, why don’t we do this? [Tells her about anal or oral sex] You can’t get any diseases from it, or get pregnant! C’mon!” he says. “Oh, OK, if it’s safe I guess it’s fine.” Now, if she had been well-educated about various sexual practices, she would know the risks of all of them. Are you prepared to talk to your baby girl about the risks of rimming or watersports? Or are you just going to say that anything besides vanilla sex is “bad” and hope she never decides to experiment, since you’ve given her no way to intelligently evaluate the risks involved? Compresensive sex ed works. Keeping teens ignorant because you don’t like the idea that they might learn about something you personally dislike doesn’t work. If you’re going to talk about straight sex, why on earth wouldn’t you talk about anal sex or masturbation?
Are you going to even going to share evolution and argument for atheism with your children, or are you going to shove your Big Guy in the Sky religion down their throats and say atheists are a bunch of ignorant, stupid, rude and hateful people? Hopefully your kids will be smart enough to see right through you.
Also, please note: atheism and the theory of evolution are not equivalent. Many many many Christians believe in evolution. Evolution is not an “atheist theory”, any more that the theory that the earth orbits the sun is an “atheist theory”.
Oh, my.
We seem to have wandered off the subject, haven’t we? If we’ve exhausted logic and have only religious dogma to support our position, maybe we’d all enjoy leaving this party and moving down the hall.
Now, I have gone nose-to-nose with religious intolerance, in person and in (slight-to-moderate) danger, and with those who use religion to justify treating other people like trash. I have observed that they never change their views, never even try on another’s point of view, and are generally unfit for polite company.
For that reason I recommend that we abandon this thread - we’ve all said our piece. Let’s move on.
Tell you what guardere,
You let me have my tax money back and send my kid to a school of my choosing and you can have your tax money and send your kid to school to learn about watersports, sludge packing, sex with animals or whatever else you want them to learn. And this conversian should be over with huh?
Well since your faith in the evolution theory is being taught in school with my tax dollars paying to do it and my faith is not being taught in school even though I pay taxes. I don’t see you point to this comment. All I am doing is equally out the faith in God and with man’s faith in science. Where is Ben’s kids going to hear about God?
Well just curious what do athiest believe all this world and mankind come from then?
Ben,
Continuing the hijack, in the 19th century, when Catholic missionaries went to Tibet, they did face a great deal of persecution and intolerance. I think it’s safe to say that every religion contains a mix of the tolerant and the not so tolerant.
Sigh. It is not her “faith” in the evolution theory. Evolution doesn’t require faith - it has verifiable, repeatable experimentation and empirical evidence to back it up.
This is not about whose faith will be taught in the schools, and with whose money. It is about the fact that it is the aegis of the school to teach science (verifiable, provable…) and the aegis of the church (faith, dogma) to teach religion.
Get it yet? It is not about faith-vs-faith, it is about faith-vs-science. If I come into your church and start teaching about quantum mechanics, on your nickel, you have a right to complain. But don’t bitch about the schools teaching science when that’s their job.
Just becuase atheists believe something does not make it an atheist theory. I also believe the earth orbits the sun. All or practically all atheists also believe the earth orbits the sun. This does not make a belief that the earth orbits the sun an “atheist theory”. Both the earth orbiting the sun and evolution are scientific theories (with scads of evidence), and therefore belong in school. Nearly all of the Christians on this board believe firmly in evolution, and would likely be appalled if it was removed from a public schools curriculum. Evolution is not an atheist theory. It is a scientific theory that many Christians firmly accept.
You ask where an atheist’s child will learn about God, and I ask where your child will learn about paganism. I suspect I will give a much better education to my child regarding religion than you will give regarding atheism or any other religion besides your brand of fundamentalist Christianity; you seem to love keeping people ignorant as a means to control what they think or do. It is a tactic that often backfires. Remove your kid from sex ed if you like, so she never gets good information about the dangers of various sexual practices. Sure, that’s a brillant idea. :rolleyes:
Any particular religion should not be endorsed by public school, but I have little problem with children learning about various beliefs, so long as the basics are not neglected; go ahead and teach about Paganism, Judaism, Satanism, Atheism, Agnosticism, LDS, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, etc., in a comparative religions class. ::shrug:: But your tiny set of religious beliefs does not get preferential treatment in the schools; you cannot use your religious belief to mandate that schools stop teaching facts that make you personally uncomfortable, any more than a Jehovah’s witness can demand that children be given propaganda that frightens them so badly that they will refuse blood transfusions when it will save their lives. You don’t seem to understand that keeping religion out of public schools protects all of us–the majority cannot force its religion beliefs on the children of the minority with the offical endorsement of the government, nor can a minority force its religion on the children of the majority. No wacky cult that you’re never heard of can demand that empirically valid facts be withheld from your child because they have some bizarre problem with the truth. No matter how many atheists exist in america, we will never be able to mandate that public teachers teach that God does not exist. Separation of Church and State is your friend, Wildest Bill!
Funny,
Screw Tape,
I thought weren’t going to respond to this thread anymore huh. 
Anyway to your point evolution is not a scientific fact. There is something called the missing “link” so to totally believe it you have got to have faith there is some monkey turning into man some where frozen in the ice. Just as I have faith that there is a God in the sky and in me. But that is not the way it is taught.
Never mind, all this tell you what will you at least put a disclaimer on teaching of evolution before you try to cram it down kids throats? Second, you didn’t answer the question how about letting me have my tax money to send my kid to the school I want them to go to and you can take your tax money to send your kid to the school you want.
This should be real cut and dry. And if liberals really were not trying to corrupt the world into the way they think it should be, this would seem fair to you.
Cause you got to understand where I and other Christians are coming from. We believe not only in God but the Devil. And the Devil would use any means necessary of deception including evolution to decieve the masses so they will not believe in God and therefor steal another soul away from God. I know you think this hogwash well I don’t. And until we both die we will not for sure know the truth for sure now will we?
Does any of this make sense to you?
I mean why do you want kids to learn evolution so bad? Who cares they are not going to use evolution to make money. So what is the point?
No, you puerile twit, there is no such thing as a “missing link.” That’s a longstanding fallacy that I have neither the time nor the patience to explain to you. Suffice to say that using your apparent reasoning, the alphabetic sequence A-B-C is not in order because there are “missing links” between A and B and between B and C.
What you know about biology, taxonomy and genetics would easily fit into a thimble with room to spare for the fatal dose of strychnine I want every time I read one of your posts. Why do you ever even open your metaphorical mouth when it is painfully evident that your degree of knowledge is limited completely to monster trucks and action movies?
Bill, do you even bother to read other peoples’ posts?
As others have stated, evolution DOES NOT depend on faith, it is backed by by tons of evidence; protein homology, comparative anatomy, and molecular genetics.
Humans DID NOT descend from monkeys; monkeys and humans share a common ancestor.
Transitional proto-hominid species HAVE been found.
Well, your kid may run away from, get a proper education, and become a biologist, and therefore “make money from evolution.” However, education, isn’t just to become fit for a trade; an education teaches you how to think instills a life-long love of learning.
::sigh:: When the hell are the creationists going to get a new schtick? Read up on the evolution of man before you start posting stuff like that. These might also be useful:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/cre_args.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
If you want to argue against evolution, start another thread. All I will say is that evolution is an accepted scientific theory with mountains of evidence, and you are incorrect to believe it denies the existence of God or that it is an atheist theory. Please read up on evolution at the talk.origins FAQ; right now your comments only display appalling ignorance about evolution and science itself.
I can’t see that knowing that the earth orbits the sun will make me any money. Therefore, I demand that it not be taught in school. :rolleyes: Besides, they will most certainly need to know it if they want to go into biology or genetics, etc. As well, if you are against teaching the scientific evidence for the age of the earth, you will be severely crippling any child who wants to study archeology, geology, astronomy, and more. Evolution is an important theory, and should no more be removed from school because your particlar interpretation of the Bible has some problems with it than the theory that the earth is round should be removed becuase the Bible talks about the four corners of the earth.
[Moderator Hat ON]
Cool it, please, Phil. Flame in the Pit, not here.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
Sorry to be so long getting back, folks. Been a long few days.
I just wanted to point out that we’ve gone 'round with Billy on evolution before, and he showed no more interest in understanding any other viewpoints then. His mind is closed, he is blinded by a light of his own making. By limiting God to what little he can understand, he has closed his heart to God as well as his mind. Perhaps someday he will learn that God cannot be constrained or limited, but I suspect he won’t.
Bill, I’ll pray for you. I can only hope you find God some day.
Look, Bill, the recent hijack regarding evolution notwithstanding, the point of all of this is that teaching abstinence only programs doesn’t work. Okay? End of discussion - we’ve sufficiently proven this point.
Now, what I’d like to add, getting back to the OP, is that we’re not actually coming at this from as different a position as you seem to think. I don’t think there’s been a single person in this thread arguing that kids should have all the information so they can go out and screw like bunnies as soon as possible. I think the one thing that we can all agree on (okay, I’m generalizing, so shoot me) is that most of us, as adults, would prefer that teenagers wait much later than they seem to be before they begin having sex. I emphasize that “seem to be” because I think we’re hearing about the worst cases and that’s skewing our perceptions.
Given that this is an important goal, because an increase in the age of initial sexual contact is likely to decrease the number of sexual partners and therefore risk of STDs, etc., I think that, again, we’ve proven that abstinence only programs don’t manage to do what you think they should. As such, they should not be taught in schools, because they won’t have the desired results.
As far as wanting your tax money back so you can educate your children wherever you want, Bill, that’s nonsense. If we were to follow that logic, than neither my roommate nor I should be paying taxes toward the education of the next generations, as neither of us has children, nor do either of us plan to have children. However, regardless of where you choose to have your children schooled (and no, that’s another thread, look it up and don’t hijack this one further), the children whose parents can’t afford to or do not wish to make such a choice still need their schools supported. So I don’t mind my taxes going to the public schools. I would, however, have a big problem with my tax dollars going to pay for a school that teaches that the theory of Evolution is on a par with Creationism. See the posts above for my rationale for feeling this way.
oops! stupid quotes…laughing at andros’ parting shot! not at andros
Sigh.
I find your grasping attitude to be rather sad. In every way you give the impression of being a bitter Shylock, unable to think of sex as anything but a conquest, unable to think of learning as anything but a path to acquisition.
Let’s contrast your attitude with the Bible:
“And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.” Matt 6:28-29.
WB, you claim that I have a problem with the religion of Christ, but clearly I do not. You don’t hear me complaining about the anti-intellectual attitude of Poly or Tris, because unlike you, they are people of integrity who fully appreciate the gift of learning which God has given them. Tris, for one, has studied science in his spare time to the point that he reads scientific articles from the primary literature for his own enjoyment and edification. Can you say the same? What is the last textbook you read for fun? What is the last non-fiction book of any sort that you read for any reason other than greed?
-Ben