# A lesson from recent history: Howard Dean is the new George McGovern. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 3, 2003, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342 "2003-09-03T16:25:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/21 "2003-09-03T19:38:37Z")
Back in those threads a while ago I said that Dean would win based on political skill. I still think that that matters more than things like issues and stuff. I do think that civil unions and national security will be Dean’s weak points, but how weak will they be? On civil unions well there is about a 50/50 divide and I think you will find that that divide will allow Dean to appeal to socially liberal Republicans more than it turns away socially conservative democrats. After all he can just point to how it is doing in Vermont. The constitutency that would really come out against this for Bush already does. On national security well I’d say that this is very quickly turning into a weak point for Bush. Iraq will only grow worse as time goes on. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/22 "2003-09-03T20:06:53Z")
Clinton body count debunking: [http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm](http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm) ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/23 "2003-09-03T20:57:26Z")
Thank Cthulu for rjung and Telemark. I just started reading the boards and thought I was going to be bitterly disappointed in what passes for intellect around here. ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/24 "2003-09-03T22:00:44Z")
Welcome to the SDMB duality72. I believe this board has the highest quality of participants anywhere on the web. I may start a thread to see what the other dopers think. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/25 "2003-09-03T22:49:07Z")
How is Dean “too radical?” ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/26 "2003-09-04T04:54:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pantom \* > \*\* > I’m willing to even cede you Goldwater. \*\* Sorry. I was only joking. Notice the 😃 I included. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/27 "2003-09-04T04:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CyberPundit \* > \*\*1. First of all could you provide a link to Fineman’s actual article? > > 1. In any case the Dean=McGovern meme while conventional wisdom in some circles is far too simple-minded. \*\* 1. No. He stated it this morning while talking with Imus. 2. Fineman has never struck me as being “far too simple-minded”. Do you have any personal experience in his field? I’d be happy to compare the quality of your analysis with his, if you have any examples available. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/28 "2003-09-04T05:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by notquitekarpov \* > \*\* > > GOM; Goldwater!?! Strewth - I take it from the smiley that this was a wind up! > > \*\* hahaha I think so… Does wind up = joke? If so, then yes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/29 "2003-09-04T05:13:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\* Fineman has never struck me as being “far too simple-minded”. Do you have any personal experience in his field? I’d be happy to compare the quality of your analysis with his, if you have any examples available. \*\* I have a question. Did he predict that Dean would raise 7 million in the second quarter and become the frontrunner? If he did then I’d say that he is worth listening to. Most likely though he was claiming that Dean had no chance of winning the nomination. ---
**Author:** ![CyberPundit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@CyberPundit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyberPundit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/30 "2003-09-04T05:16:19Z")
“I’d be happy to compare the quality of your analysis with his, if you have any examples available.” No I am not a professional political analyst. So what? I have given my reasons for why the analogy is simple-minded. What were Fineman’s reasons? If you think that just because Fineman is a professional, his opinion must be right why bother starting a debate? Just take your opinions straight from the great man. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/31 "2003-09-04T05:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sterra \* > \*\*I have a question. Did he predict that Dean would raise 7 million in the second quarter and become the frontrunner? > \*\* I don’t know if he makes predictions. His comments appeared to be addressing the current situation. IIRC, he stated that Dean had already raised somewhere between 10 and 15 million dollars. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/32 "2003-09-04T05:23:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zoo \* > \*\*Welcome to the SDMB duality72. > > I believe this board has the highest quality of participants anywhere on the web. > > I may start a thread to see what the other dopers think. \*\* Okay… Flattery willl get you everywhere! Sometimes. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/33 "2003-09-04T05:37:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pantom \* > **As I said in the Hillary thread, she’ll play RFK to Dean’s Eugene McCarthy.** Some wacko shoots her and she becomes a “if only” martyr? ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/34 "2003-09-04T06:12:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > \*\*I don’t know if he makes predictions. His comments appeared to be addressing the current situation. > > IIRC, he stated that Dean had already raised somewhere between 10 and 15 million dollars. \*\* > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. Heres an article he did. I’ll quote a line where he comments on his past prediction of Dean. > [@](#): > > Boy was I wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Already\_in\_Use](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Already\_in\_Use](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Already_in_Use)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/35 "2003-09-04T07:58:55Z")
Interesting radical lefty, this Dean. Why, he’s so leftist, [he’s a member of the NRA](http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2003/09/04/kerry_changes_stance_takes_on_dean/). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/36 "2003-09-04T08:19:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > \*\*So, we’re expecting a Palestinian militant to assassinate Hillary? \*\* Maybe Hillary will wear the polka-dotted dress.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Roger\_Mexico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f6c823/32.png) [@Roger\_Mexico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roger_Mexico)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/37 "2003-09-04T08:22:09Z")
I find it puzzling that Dean is considered radical. What is so radical about him? Kucinich is the only candidate who is remotely rational, but I understand why our insane criminal government might consider him radical. ---
**Author:** ![keeper0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@keeper0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/keeper0)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/38 "2003-09-04T14:06:44Z")
Howard Dean isn’t George McGovern… he’s Jeb Bartlett! Okay, okay, comparing real candidates to fictional ones is apples to oranges… but so is comparing across 30 years of history. And the similarities spooked me after I thought of it. Governors of Vermont/New Hampshire. Educated Professionals outside of politics. (Doctor/Economist) Running against party insiders. Social progressive, fiscal conservative. Forthright to the point of bluntness. ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/39 "2003-09-04T14:38:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by keeper0 \* > \*\* > > And the similarities spooked me after I thought of it. > Governors of Vermont/New Hampshire. > Educated Professionals outside of politics. (Doctor/Economist) > Running against party insiders. > Social progressive, fiscal conservative. > Forthright to the point of bluntness. \*\* How about anti-war? ---
**Author:** ![GOM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GOM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GOM)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342/40 "2003-09-04T14:41:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sterra \* > \*\*I’ll quote a line where he comments on his past prediction of Dean. \*\* Thanks. It’s refreshing to see a guy who’s mature enough to be willing to admit he was wrong, instead of trying to spin it away… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-lesson-from-recent-history-howard-dean-is-the-new-george-mcgovern/199342.md?page=3)