# A Libertarian Argument Regarding State Schools and the Curriculum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108 "2010-12-06T02:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/41 "2010-12-07T04:19:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > One key flaw in your argument is that only (or mainly) creationists want religion taught in school. Another flaw is that religion would be taught that way in schools. > > I’m an atheist, and I think it would be a good idea to have a HS class in world religions. > > But again, if you have a cite, I’d love to see it. Pardon me if I don’t trust anyone’s amazing mind reading powers. Ahh, I agree about that. They had some world region class in in my old high school a long time ago, and people would do well to learn more about the world around them. However I think what **Der Trihs** was on about was the type of parents who want religion taught in schools as an alternative to things like evolution or the Big Bang. Rereading, maybe I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/42 "2010-12-07T04:40:30Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Ahh, I agree about that. They had some world region class in in my old high school a long time ago, and people would do well to learn more about the world around them. Ok > [@](#): > > However I think what **Der Trihs** was on about was the type of parents who want religion taught in schools as an alternative to things like evolution or the Big Bang. Rereading, maybe I’m wrong. Really? That’s not what he said, and that’s not what the poster he responded to was talking about. On what basis do you make that claim? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2010, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/43 "2010-12-07T10:42:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Won’t work. Without massive government oversight - which means we might as well have the government do it all like now The example of the U.K. would indicate otherwise. Not only have we had a thriving private sector, but we already have a schools inspectorate which monitors the state sector as well. > [@](#): > > And you can guarantee that one of the first things that happens will be that all the existing private schools will raise their tuition by however much the government is shelling out. This did not happen when vouchers were tried for primary schools in the U.K. Further - and I appreciate that this may well be different in America - private schools here are charities and have to operate as such, so they can’t just put up fees. > [@](#): > > When you want mediocrity, when you want a minimal required service provided to everyone, go for the government. I like your cynicism. However, while I agree that careful control is required, this has been tried before, and it was successful. ---
**Author:** ![Izgad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/278dde/32.png) [@Izgad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izgad)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2011, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/44 "2011-01-02T05:37:23Z")
Hi everyone I am the libertarian friend, being discussed. I have begun to respond on my blog ([Izgad: The Straight Dope on Libertarianism](http://izgad.blogspot.com/2011/01/straight-dope-on-libertarianism.html)). I look forward to continuing this discussion on either of these forums. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/45 "2011-01-03T01:16:25Z")
Many here aren’t going to click on your link. Post your argument here. I’ll start by saying that the first two of your premises are flawed. Not all government action is necessarily coercive: it can be protective, as in defence of the realm. And ‘all human actions cause some form of non-physical harm’ simply doesn’t fly: think of charity. You also fail to carry these premises through the rest of your argument. I’ll let others shred the rest your argument. ---
**Author:** ![HRoark43](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/bc8723/32.png) [@HRoark43](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HRoark43)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/46 "2011-01-03T01:21:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > All sorts of problems with that. First, the alternative to public schools is massive public ignorance; Not true; there is also the option of home schooling and private schools. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/47 "2011-01-03T01:26:41Z")
> [@HRoark43](#): > > Not true; there is also the option of home schooling and private schools. Which doesn’t negate what **Der Trihs** said. We know there are these options, but, in the absence of public education, we did in the past, and would again, see massive public ignorance. It doesn’t mean no one would be educated, just that many would not. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/48 "2011-01-03T05:41:36Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I’m closer to libertarian than any other mainstream ideology, and while I’m not necessarily enthusiastic about public funding of schools, it’s far, far preferable to even the chance of rampant ignorance. But the problem with public schools is that, while they’re accountable to voters, it forces so many kids into a one-size-fits-all approach to education. When you put all the average kids together, the above average ones don’t get the challenge they need and the below average students don’t get the extra attention they need. This has nothing to do with public education, but is a matter of educational philosophy and differentiation. When I was in a public high school in New York I was always challenged, since our school was big enough to sort kids by tested ability. This seems to be unpopular now, though the teachers in our district are supposed to teach in a way to differentiate the different levels of kids in one classroom. Nice theory, but hard in practice. I’d guess that a small private school would have the same problem, since they would not have the resources to teach different levels of students in different ways. My graduating class was about 1500, and I think it actually worked very well for me and everyone in my school - it was the highest rated school you didn’t need to take a test to get in when I was there. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/49 "2011-01-03T09:54:50Z")
> [@villa](#): > > but, in the absence of public education, we did in the past, and would again, see massive public ignorance. I’m not sure that’s correct. I can’t find a cite, but I remember being told that in the U.K., literacy rates at the end of the 19th century were higher than at the end of the 20th. America may well have been different, of course. And Britain’s population is now vastly higher than 100 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/50 "2011-01-03T14:33:18Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m not sure that’s correct. I can’t find a cite, but I remember being told that in the U.K., literacy rates at the end of the 19th century were higher than at the end of the 20th. > > America may well have been different, of course. And Britain’s population is now vastly higher than 100 years ago. Well, an 1876 Registrar General Report in the UK showed 16% of men and 22% of women unable to write their name. Literacy rates, to the extent of reading, have not seemed to change much over the 20th century in the UK. Reading was always seen as an important skill, not least because of the emphasis placed on Bible reading. Writing rates on the other hand were lower. Also remember that compulsory primary education came to England in 1870 with the Forster Elementary Education Act. Parliament had been voting money for education spending on the poor since 1833, and in Scotland state funding for universal education goes back to 1561. So it isn’t really fair to look at 1900 as a point with a libertarian type solution in place in England. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/51 "2011-01-03T14:39:53Z")
> [@Bpelta](#): > > First off, he tells me, we shouldn’t have public schools. How dare the government be stuffing ideas into our kids’ heads! Government action is _never_ a virtue, unless taken to defend “people from direct physical harm caused by other people without their consent.” If taken for other reasons, it impinges on our liberties! How dare the government tell us what to think! Once they can tell our kids how to think and use taxpayer money for those purposes, what’s to keep them from coming to our houses with guns to force creationists to turn from their “heresy?” If we absolutely have to have public schools, they can’t endorse any agenda whatsoever. There can be Holocaust Denial classes and Evolution classes, but the government endorses nothing and none of these classes are required. The usual counter-argument to any Libertarian claim like this: the government is not some alien force. We live in a democracy - we are the government. The limit on government action is we won’t do things to ourselves we don’t want done. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/52 "2011-01-03T14:46:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We live in a democracy - we are the government. The limit on government action is we won’t do things to ourselves we don’t want done. But see, you’re not looking at this like a libertarian. To you and me, that statement makes sense. To a libertarian, that statement just shows how deluded you are for being a statist willing to bend your knee to the will of the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/53 "2011-01-03T14:56:40Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m not sure that’s correct. I can’t find a cite, but I remember being told that in the U.K., literacy rates at the end of the 19th century were higher than at the end of the 20th. That’s because literacy has been broadly redefined since the end of the 19th century. It used to mean simply that a person was able to write his or her own name, as **villa** alludes to. I think you’d have a rather difficult time finding anyone who thinks that’s a reasonable definition today. ETA: There was also hardly anyone in the UK in 1900 who didn’t speak English as a first language, relative to today. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/54 "2011-01-04T03:16:29Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > But see, you’re not looking at this like a libertarian. To you and me, that statement makes sense. To a libertarian, that statement just shows how deluded you are for being a statist willing to bend your knee to the will of the majority. That’s because the libertarians don’t realize that the first thing the rest of us would do in Libertopia is form tribes and then we’d oppress all the libertarians who think they can get by on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Izgad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/278dde/32.png) [@Izgad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izgad)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/55 "2011-01-04T15:58:30Z")
Quartz What is the difference between how you and I can go about solving a problem and how the government solves a problem? You and I, as private citizens, do not have the right to engage in coercive actions such as drafting people into our “private security force” or lock them in our basements because we think they are terrorists even though we are acting “in defense of the realm.” Charity can certainly cause non-physical harm. How would you feel if I donated money to Sarah Palin’s presidential campaign and because of that you had to see her face and hear her voice every time you turned on your television? The moment I have to take into account your personal feelings and mental health then all of a sudden the government gains the power to interfere with Sarah Palin and I as we engage in certain consensual activities between adults (me giving her money and she spending that money). I am sure conservative Christians would be very hurt by your charity dollars building an abortion clinic next door. ---
**Author:** ![Izgad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/278dde/32.png) [@Izgad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izgad)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/56 "2011-01-04T16:02:47Z")
No is, except for maybe Ayn Rand, is claiming that libertarians could get by on their own without society. The issue here is building a non-coercive society for all, liberals, conservatives, communists, nazis and libertarians. Why is it so important to you to have the government push your way of life onto other people? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/57 "2011-01-04T16:08:04Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > No is, except for maybe Ayn Rand, is claiming that libertarians could get by on their own without society. The issue here is building a non-coercive society for all, liberals, conservatives, communists, nazis and libertarians. Why is it so important to you to have the government push your way of life onto other people? It isn’t. But given the fact that you ‘libertarians’ are quite happy to use the coercive powers of the state to protect your property interests, despite (or often because of) the fact that the existing distribution of property is the result of coercive government action, makes me think there is a little tad of hypocrisy going on. Were we to be starting completely from scratch, I might concede you had somewhat of an argument. But given that you want to use the state to preserve the advantages capitalism has stolen for its chosen few, while preventing the state being used to correct any of those injustices, forgive me for thinking that modern ‘libertarians’ are full of it. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/58 "2011-01-04T16:33:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m an atheist, and I think it would be a good idea to have a HS class in world religions. Me too. One thing I think we can all agree on is that religion has a major impact on the people of the world. While the government should never endorse or discourage any one of them it does seem odd that our educational system just pretends like religions don’t even exist. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/59 "2011-01-04T17:10:36Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Me too. One thing I think we can all agree on is that religion has a major impact on the people of the world. While the government should never endorse or discourage any one of them it does seem odd that our educational system just pretends like religions don’t even exist. Could you provide a list of religions you think such a course should cover? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/60 "2011-01-04T17:11:39Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > Me too. One thing I think we can all agree on is that religion has a major impact on the people of the world. While the government should never endorse or discourage any one of them it does seem odd that our educational system just pretends like religions don’t even exist. When my kids were in high school, they had a fairly major section of their history class on world religions. The text listed all the major ones, their range, and the claims of the religions. It was quite nicely done. I suspect most schools do something similar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108.md?page=4)