# A Libertarian Argument Regarding State Schools and the Curriculum **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108 "2010-12-06T02:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/61 "2011-01-04T17:14:31Z")
> [@shiftless](#): > > it does seem odd that our educational system just pretends like religions don’t even exist. What gives you the idea that this is what happens? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/62 "2011-01-04T17:44:14Z")
Imagine Walmart teaching our children… ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/63 "2011-01-04T17:50:15Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Imagine Walmart teaching our children… Why imagine. We have this happening at the college level - look at the University of Phoenix and its less reputable brethren. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/64 "2011-01-04T17:57:54Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Why imagine. We have this happening at the college level - look at the University of Phoenix and its less reputable brethren. True. My point is that privatization could end up being a race to the bottom for k through 12. Decent _affordable_ primary education may be pushed out of the market by Wal-schools. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/65 "2011-01-04T20:46:45Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > No is, except for maybe Ayn Rand, is claiming that libertarians could get by on their own without society. The issue here is building a non-coercive society for all, liberals, conservatives, communists, nazis and libertarians. Why is it so important to you to have the government push your way of life onto other people? If I feel like standing in the middle of the town square of Libertopia and shooting my gun off into the air, would I be free to do so? If not, then Libertopia is no different than Anytown, USA. I’m forced to restrict my activities by what other people want me to do - it’s only a matter of details about what those other people want to coerce me into doing. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/66 "2011-01-05T09:12:23Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > Quartz… I’m sure you have a number of interesting discussion points there but could you please make them more comprehendable? ---
**Author:** ![martu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@martu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/martu)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/67 "2011-01-05T16:20:53Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > Quartz > What is the difference between how you and I can go about solving a problem and how the government solves a problem? Personally I use more lube. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/68 "2011-01-05T16:27:55Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m sure you have a number of interesting discussion points there but could you please make them more comprehendable? _Comprehensible_, dear. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/69 "2011-01-05T16:35:49Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > What is the difference between how you and I can go about solving a problem and how the government solves a problem? You and I, as private citizens, do not have the right to engage in coercive actions such as drafting people into our “private security force” or lock them in our basements because we think they are terrorists even though we are acting “in defense of the realm.” Charity can certainly cause non-physical harm. How would you feel if I donated money to Sarah Palin’s presidential campaign and because of that you had to see her face and hear her voice every time you turned on your television? The moment I have to take into account your personal feelings and mental health then all of a sudden the government gains the power to interfere with Sarah Palin and I as we engage in certain consensual activities between adults (me giving her money and she spending that money). I am sure conservative Christians would be very hurt by your charity dollars building an abortion clinic next door. I’m not Quartz but I’ll take a shot at this. The difference is that governmental action is backed up by the consent of the majority of the people. If you or I, as individuals, lock somebody up for doing something we think is wrong, we’re kidnappers. If the government locks somebody up for doing something it thinks is wrong, it’s exercising its police powers. And that really is an important distinction. Because the government, as I wrote above, reflects the consensus of society on what is right and wrong. We don’t give government the authority to lock people up unless most of us agree that there’s a good reason for it. And while one or two individuals might lock a person up for a reason that’s stupid or insane it’s unlikely that millions of people would agree to that reason unless it was actually a fairly rational reason. ---
**Author:** ![Izgad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/278dde/32.png) [@Izgad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izgad)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/70 "2011-01-07T19:20:51Z")
Villa It is not truly coercive when the government stops you from burning down my house. It is you who have broken the social contract and turned to coercive force. The government is just acting to stop coercion. Yes I grant you that I am where I am today, to some extent because I received certain unfair advantages (or at least that others were unfairly disadvantaged). The problem with using the government to balance this is that we there is no one agreed upon standard of fairness. Should I get a break because I am an Asperger or because my grandmother suffered under both the Nazis and the communists? While it might not be perfectly fair, the fairest solution I know of is to let all property stand as is and hope that the free market will eventually, over time, equalize everything. In the meantime, I believe that people of “privilege” like me should try to make an extra effort in our personal lives to help those who have been disadvantaged by history. Say, for example, if I showed a little extra patience with students of color. Little Nemo In Libertopia you would certainly be free to fire off any gun you wished in the air in the privacy of your own property. If you wish to do so in the town square you will need to ask permission of the owner of that town square, likely the citizens of Libertopia. The difference from Anytown is that the people of Libertopia have no right to interfere with what you do when you are not on their property, like when you are in your home. What kind of history have you been studying? Very few governments have had any formal backing by the majority of their people. On the flip side, what happens when I get a lynch mob behind me? It becomes ok then to start going around to Muslim homes in our town looking for “terrorists?” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/71 "2011-01-08T02:20:50Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > In Libertopia you would certainly be free to fire off any gun you wished in the air in the privacy of your own property. If you wish to do so in the town square you will need to ask permission of the owner of that town square, likely the citizens of Libertopia. I’m a citizen of Libertopia. Isn’t it as much my town square as anyone else’s? Why should I allow the rest of society decide what I can do? > [@Izgad](#): > > The difference from Anytown is that the people of Libertopia have no right to interfere with what you do when you are not on their property, like when you are in your home. So I can shoot my gun off in my back yard? > [@Izgad](#): > > What kind of history have you been studying? Very few governments have had any formal backing by the majority of their people. Real world history. It’s true that many historical societies were not democracies. But I don’t live in one of those societies. The country I’m in has the formal backing by the majority of its people. John Locke was around long before Dejacque, Menger, or Mises. Maybe those guys should have read up on the social contract. > [@Izgad](#): > > On the flip side, what happens when I get a lynch mob behind me? It becomes ok then to start going around to Muslim homes in our town looking for “terrorists?” Convince a hundred million people to join your lynch mob and we’ll talk. But I don’t think you can do that. And that’s my point. You’re not going to convince a majority of the people to do something stupid like joining a lynch mob. Lynching used to be a serious problem in this country. And it wasn’t solved by libertarianism. It was solved when the majority of people in this country came out against and started enforcing laws against lynch mobs - they used force to coerce people. And I have no problems with that. Coercive force can be a good thing when it’s applied correctly against the right targets. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/72 "2011-01-08T09:10:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > As I see it, the central problem in libertarianism tends to be an unexamined faith in the sacred value of private property, not realizing that private property is a quintessentially governmental solution to the problem of allocation of resources. Excellent point that Stupidists seem to be too … err, stupid … to grasp. Without _some_ sort of government, all private property is based on “Might makes right.” But be careful not to smudge the term “libertarianism” too much. There are intelligent “Libertarians” who post on SDMB, understand all this and more, and with whom I’m in agreement on many economic and political issues, though I’d never describe myself with the L-word. > [@jayjay](#): > > But see, you’re not looking at this like a libertarian. To you and me, that statement makes sense. To a libertarian, that statement just shows how deluded you are for being a statist willing to bend your knee to the will of the majority. See comment above. Frankly, the terms “conservative”, “libertarian,” etc. should fall into disuse in contemporary America, due to their ambiguity. I prefer to divide present American political thinking into the two camps of “Rationalism” and “Stupidism.” Stupidists are those who think Americans want stupid leaders with stupid policies. If you think I’m exaggerating, note that many voters support GWB or Palin precisely because they’re not “intellectual.” ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/73 "2011-01-08T15:04:06Z")
I haven’t read my way through the thread but I’d like to comment on Libertarians. Libertarians only exist, and can only exist if there is some sort of government led civilisation to (A) protect them, and (B) allow the supply of manufactured goods etc. Their ideas are nonsensical, if there were no LEOs and armed forces to allow them their life style they’d be very shortly taken over, subjugated, enslaved or exterminated by those who do have a hierarchial, organised system. They are basically total hypocrites. Apart from the quite honestly,patheticly poor standard of training and direction of the militias where are they going to get their resupplies of amongst other things, ammunition and medical supplies? Spares for their vehicles ? Refined gasoline ? And maybe they enjoy living in a hut in the hills but many more people enjoy foreign holidays, video games, a choice of resteraunts etc. As to free speech this is not some sacred right. I personally don’t believe in peoples rights to inform others on how to make explosives, poison gas, or for that matter nuclear bombs. I don’t believe in peoples rights to reveal private and personal stuff about celebreties that is of no concern to them other then getting a vicarious thrill for the peeping Tom brigade. And as for slander and libel ? Isn’t that free speech as well ? Libertarianism is a fairy tale for wishful thinkers. ---
**Author:** ![Izgad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/278dde/32.png) [@Izgad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izgad)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/74 "2011-01-14T14:04:59Z")
Little Nemo In Libertopia you are a shareholder in the town square. Other people can outvote you in how the town square is used. This is unlike your gun, or the Eucharist you might wish to stick nails into. Yes you can fire your gun into the air as long as the bullet or the sound waves at 2 in the morning does not fall outside your property. If you bothered to actually read libertarian thinkers you would notice that every one of them acknowledges a major debt to classical liberal thinkers like John Locke and see themselves as following in that tradition. In the early twentieth century the Klan had millions of followers across America. The people who stopped lynching had to rely on libertarian principles. Libertarianism supports government force when it is used to top other people from using force, such as in the case of lynching. The fact that many of these people refused to consistently follow these principles is the cause of the present day crisis in liberalism. Septimus, Lust4Life, Libertarianism does not mean anti-government. On the contrary it means supporting a government that protects people from physical harm. Since all government action involves coercion, any time the government does something that does not involve physical protection is to violate the government role of protecting people. Lust4Life The government does not build spare parts for vehicles, refine gasoline or design video games. Greedy selfish corporations do that. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/75 "2011-01-14T15:48:50Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > Yes you can fire your gun into the air as long as the bullet or the sound waves at 2 in the morning does not fall outside your property. Why is 2 a.m. different to, let’s say, 3 p.m.? Why should the government have any role in determining sleeping patterns or “quiet time”? If it is acceptable at 3 p.m. that sound waves fall outside my property, it is equally acceptable at 2 a.m. On the other hand, if it is unacceptable at 2 a.m., it is unacceptable at 3 p.m. Unless, of course, you believe in a filthy nanny state that should enforce bed times for all of us. > [@Izgad](#): > > Libertarianism does not mean anti-government. On the contrary it means supporting a government that protects people from physical harm. Since all government action involves coercion, any time the government does something that does not involve physical protection is to violate the government role of protecting people. Really? Any time the government does something? So in Libertopia the government doesn’t act to enforce private contracts? The government doesn’t protect the integrity of private property. It’s good to know that I can go over to my neighbor’s house, kick down his door while he is at work, take his big screen TV back to my place, and the government won’t do anything because it is doesn’t involve physical protection. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/76 "2011-01-14T16:10:24Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > Little Nemo > In Libertopia you are a shareholder in the town square. Other people can outvote you in how the town square is used. This is unlike your gun, or the Eucharist you might wish to stick nails into. Yes you can fire your gun into the air as long as the bullet or the sound waves at 2 in the morning does not fall outside your property. > If you bothered to actually read libertarian thinkers you would notice that every one of them acknowledges a major debt to classical liberal thinkers like John Locke and see themselves as following in that tradition. > In the early twentieth century the Klan had millions of followers across America. The people who stopped lynching had to rely on libertarian principles. Libertarianism supports government force when it is used to top other people from using force, such as in the case of lynching. The fact that many of these people refused to consistently follow these principles is the cause of the present day crisis in liberalism. > > Septimus, Lust4Life, > Libertarianism does not mean anti-government. On the contrary it means supporting a government that protects people from physical harm. Since all government action involves coercion, any time the government does something that does not involve physical protection is to violate the government role of protecting people. > Lust4Life > The government does not build spare parts for vehicles, refine gasoline or design video games. Greedy selfish corporations do that. So a bunch of people are getting together, voting on how they think things should be, and then enforcing these ideas on the community. With a strong emphasis on property rights and security but a minimum of government services. I hate to tell you this but you’re not a Libertarian. You’re a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![Izgad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/278dde/32.png) [@Izgad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Izgad)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/77 "2011-01-18T16:07:58Z")
Villa There is no real difference between 2 AM and 2 PM accept that one has a better chance of convincing a judge that your motive in limiting your neighbor’s noise making at 2 AM is motivated to avoid the empirically demonstrable effects it has on you than you would if you were trying to stop your neighbor from making noise at 2 PM. My property is an extension of my body. So there is no meaningful difference between breaking into my house to chop my legs off and breaking into my house to take my big screen TV. Since contracts involve property of some sort the government always has the duty to enforce them. For example when Antonio failed to pay Shylock back, Shylock acquired a pound of Antonio’s flesh and the court of Venice was obligated to support Shylock in his bid to acquire this pound of flesh. (Of course the court did not have to allow Shylock the ability to shed Antonio’s blood or take his life.) Little Nemo I support gay marriage, legalized drugs and prostitution and getting our troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan. I am a Republican? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2011, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/78 "2011-01-18T17:33:14Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > There is no real difference between 2 AM and 2 PM accept that one has a better chance of convincing a judge that your motive in limiting your neighbor’s noise making at 2 AM is motivated to avoid the empirically demonstrable effects it has on you than you would if you were trying to stop your neighbor from making noise at 2 PM. Oh - so the state does have the right to determine acceptable times when you can disturb me. This is what all libertarians sink back to in the end. Government intervention is OK as long as it is in an area you agree with. > [@Izgad](#): > > My property is an extension of my body. So there is no meaningful difference between breaking into my house to chop my legs off and breaking into my house to take my big screen TV. Since contracts involve property of some sort the government always has the duty to enforce them. For example when Antonio failed to pay Shylock back, Shylock acquired a pound of Antonio’s flesh and the court of Venice was obligated to support Shylock in his bid to acquire this pound of flesh. (Of course the court did not have to allow Shylock the ability to shed Antonio’s blood or take his life.) I don’t even know where to start to address the ridiculous of this. I’ll leave it with the concept that using a fictional situation probably isn’t going to carry a lot of weight here. Though there is often little choice but to embrace fiction and fantasy to defend the bastardization of libertarianism that you espouse. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/79 "2011-01-18T17:40:06Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > My property is an extension of my body. So there is no meaningful difference between breaking into my house to chop my legs off and breaking into my house to take my big screen TV. I wonder if you realize how very fanatical the above sounds…fetishizing property to that extent smacks of sociopathy. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108/80 "2011-01-18T18:54:55Z")
> [@Izgad](#): > > My property is an extension of my body. So there is no meaningful difference between breaking into my house to chop my legs off and breaking into my house to take my big screen TV. An ideology that is incapable of making a distinction between chopping off limbs and stealing televisions is fundamentally broken. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-libertarian-argument-regarding-state-schools-and-the-curriculum/563108.md?page=5)