# a) Life is tough; we should be too. b) Life is unforgiving; we should be too. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 11, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112 "2009-03-11T19:42:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/1 "2009-03-11T19:42:06Z")
Does the first statement imply the second? If not, should it? Sometimes? Always? Discuss. Or tell me to screw off. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/2 "2009-03-11T19:49:03Z")
Case in point: medical training. A teaching doctor I once read told his students that as physicians, someday, they _will_ kill someone, and that families are unforgiving. For that reason, he said, their training must be unforgiving of any error, incapacity, or failing, and they must learn not to forgive themselves, either. Might this attitude produce good in any other area of life? Does it even produce good in medicine? Or is it just the expression of something buried deep in our natures? (I’d have Edited the OP, but it took me too long to write this.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/3 "2009-03-11T20:31:22Z")
I think it’s a good attitude for things where failing is very very bad, such as doctor, nuclear safety manager, rocket scientist\engineer for manned missions, ect. Kind of dickish for normal things. Normally failure is a learning experience. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/4 "2009-03-11T21:00:20Z")
Screw off. Presuming that was an inclusive or, I will also debate, and would say that neither of your ‘tough’ or ‘unforgiving’ statements is relevent to anything. Doctors are ‘unforgiving’ of errors because the cost of error is so high, so they must be very proactively careful to avoid it; it’s irrelevent whether the families are forgiving or not. Also, arguing against the thesis, I’d imagine that a physician that never forgave himself and punished himself mentally for every death on his watch forever would become miserable and stressed and burn out in a short time. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/5 "2009-03-11T21:05:35Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > Does the first statement imply the second? No. I think most people would accept as a fact that life is tough, and it’s logical that we need to be at least tough enough to deal with it. That’s about our own coping skills. Is life unforgiving? I suppose - it doesn’t have the capacity to forgive things. That doesn’t mean we should never forgive ourselves or each other for our failings. Without forgiveness I think life becomes much harder. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/6 "2009-03-11T21:48:28Z")
Regardless of the veracity of the first statement, we should not be unforgiving. After all, one day, it may be us that’s in need of forgiveness. Indeed, being forgiving is beneficial to the species as well as the individual. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/7 "2009-03-11T21:54:18Z")
Tough and unforgiving are not synonymous. Tough is a quality that can be applied to things able to withstand harsh treatment. Unforgiving is a quality of character when applied to human beings that tends to call humanity into question. But when applied to life itself implies indifference of an uncaring universe. So I would say that the person espousing this is either ignorant of the fallacies or is arguing for inhumanity for the very human failing of making mistakes. On edit: If it is your statement, I’ll go with screw off you unforgiving bastard! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/8 "2009-03-11T22:25:34Z")
> [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > a) Life is tough; we should be too. Life is generally as tough as we as a group make it. We should put less of a priority on being “tough” and more of one on not hurting ourselves in the first place. Problems are seldom solved by people who think in terms of toughing things out - that’s just another way of being passive. > [@Beware\_of\_Doug](#): > > b) Life is unforgiving; we should be too. Life\* isn’t unforgiving; it’s uncaring, which isn’t the same thing. - Assuming you mean “the natural universe” by that; if you mean people as well, then it’s still not true because people may or may not be forgiving. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/9 "2009-03-11T22:33:05Z")
I wouldn’t say that they equate to one another. The general method of teaching someone is to be tough on them when they fail, but generous when they succeed. But saying “unforgiving” implies that you’re “not going to forget”. Teaching requires consistency. When bad, punish, when good, reward. There’s no need to remember the past. Remembering it, in fact, goes against being consistent. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/10 "2009-03-12T04:29:43Z")
You can’t just take “Life is \_\_\_\_\_; we should be too,” and fill the blank with whatever you please, and expect it to make sense. Life is a cabaret; we should be too. Life is a dome of many-colored glass; we should be too. Life is longer in tortoises than in mayflies; we should be too. Life is a magazine; we should be too. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![jakesteele](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ed8c4c/32.png) [@jakesteele](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jakesteele)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/11 "2009-03-12T04:46:59Z")
> [@](#): > > QUOTE=Beware of Doug;10927292]Does the first statement imply the second? > > If not, should it? Sometimes? Always? > > Discuss. Or tell me to screw off. [/QUOTE] I think you should change you name to “Beware of the Dougma” that has a ring to it and best expresses what you are trying to imply. Just a thought, not a smartass remark. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/12 "2009-03-12T12:29:18Z")
I dispute both premises. Life isn’t tough, not really, not for most of us here. And I agree with **DT** that life isn’t unforgiving, it’s uncaring. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/13 "2009-03-12T12:52:37Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > You can’t just take “Life is \_\_\_\_\_; we should be too,” and fill the blank with whatever you please, and expect it to make sense. > > Life is a cabaret; we should be too. > Life is a dome of many-colored glass; we should be too. > Life is longer in tortoises than in mayflies; we should be too. > Life is a magazine; we should be too. > > :rolleyes: Or more to the point, and in conjuction with **Marley23** and **The Second Stone** , life is unthinking, unfeeling, unknowing, and a whole lot of other "un"s. It does not follow that we need to match the qualities and capacities of an insensate, intangible concept, just because in some sense we need to be tough to cope with it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/14 "2009-03-12T13:27:38Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I dispute both premises. Life isn’t tough, not really, not for most of us here. Not sure I agree. Plenty of people make a big deal out of nothing, but you only have your own life. Comparing it to other lives in the abstract is difficult. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/15 "2009-03-12T14:05:54Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > Case in point: medical training. A teaching doctor I once read told his students that as physicians, someday, **they will kill someone** , and that families are unforgiving. For that reason, he said, their training must be unforgiving of any error, incapacity, or failing, and they must learn not to forgive themselves, either. So…they will be forgiven for that though? I don’t think it’s an matter of being “unforgiving”. You should be held responsible for your actions. When people make mistakes they should learn from them, but they shouldn’t be absolved from the damaged caused by those mistakes. . ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/16 "2009-03-12T17:47:15Z")
to be unforgiving is to be inflexible. The human mind is a pretty flexible thing, it was ‘designed’ that way because every judgement/instinct/behavior that is good or gives advantage is better if it’s flexible. To be unforgiving is to remove change and context from your algorithm, I think that would be limiting. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/17 "2009-03-12T18:20:21Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > You can’t just take “Life is \_\_\_\_\_; we should be too,” and fill the blank with whatever you please, and expect it to make sense. > > Life is a cabaret; we should be too. > Life is a dome of many-colored glass; we should be too. > Life is longer in tortoises than in mayflies; we should be too. > Life is a magazine; we should be too. > > :rolleyes: Good point. What does the OP mean by “life” and why is everyone accepting the assumption that it is unforgiving. Has no one ever been forgiven for anything? When that happened wasn’t that “life” being forgiving? Or are we just blaming all the shitty our experiences on “life” and the good ones on people, as if there is a difference? Many people don’t realize that life can be more than what they have experienced. The question in the OP would have made more sense if it were phrased “My life is \_\_\_\_; so I should be too.” At least that kind of thinking is often the case with most people. They learn from experience and adapt. If their life was tough then they become tough to deal with it. Is that an acceptable way of looking at things? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/18 "2009-03-12T18:44:31Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > Good point. What does the OP mean by “life” and why is everyone accepting the assumption that it is unforgiving. Has no one ever been forgiven for anything? When that happened wasn’t that “life” being forgiving? In this case life is the events we experience. > [@](#): > > Or are we just blaming all the shitty our experiences on “life” and the good ones on people, as if there is a difference? No, you’re drawing a distinction nobody made. People have the choice to be forgiving. Life doesn’t make choices. Saying life is tough is like saying life isn’t fair - it’s an accurate representation of our experience but it’s attributing a quality to life that it’s not able to possess, so it doesn’t mean very much. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/19 "2009-03-12T18:55:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I dispute both premises. Life isn’t tough, not really, not for most of us here. And I agree with **DT** that life isn’t unforgiving, it’s uncaring. Please defien “here.” Because if you mean “America,” your statement is awesomely stupid. Life is tough for plenty of people, though perhaps not a majority. If you mean “the world,” the statement is nonsensical. Life is horrid in many, many places of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112/20 "2009-03-12T19:39:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Please defien “here.” Because if you mean “America,” your statement is awesomely stupid. Life is tough for plenty of people, though perhaps not a majority. > > If you mean “the world,” the statement is nonsensical. Life is horrid in many, many places of the world. But that’s the point. Since things are awful _there_, nice _here_, and kind of in the middle \*over there \*- that means that it’s not life in general being “tough”. But just certain places being “tough”. And fatalism about life being tough isn’t likely to make things in a bad place get any better. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-is-tough-we-should-be-too-b-life-is-unforgiving-we-should-be-too/489112.md?page=2)