# A life of decadence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2001, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598 "2001-10-25T18:15:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/1 "2001-10-25T18:15:39Z")
Supposing you’ve freed yourself from the untruth of religion, thusly your actions are no longer accountable to God, and you have no parental responsibilities… should you then indulge in a decadent lifestyle? Should you abuse and destroy what you like–all the while remaining lawful? If you have nothing but yourself to live for, what then is to stop you from indulging in any and every perverse fantasy and whim? Moreover, is it, can it be considered, one’s **duty**? if not one’s **self-truth** to act upon impulse and desire? would denying the self all desires and fantasy be like living a lie? ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/2 "2001-10-25T18:21:01Z")
Ladies and Gentlemen, welcome…THE MARQUIS DE SADE!!! Actually, Lolo, this is the Marquis whole philosophy. We should remain loyal only to NATURE and what nature has instilled in us. We should seek only our own pleasure, our own fulfillment and our own success, just like animals and plants do. We should not consider others in anyway. Sadism: no god, no love, no crime. If you feel like killing your mother because she won’t give you a cookie, do it, because nature instilled that instinct in your soul. Anyway, I don’t follow Sadist philosophy, as I think it’s too simplistic for humanity. You know, social contract and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/3 "2001-10-25T18:59:34Z")
**jarbabyj** You have just changed my life. The Marquis de Sade is my new hero. > [@](#): > > “Imperious, choleric, irascible, extreme in everything, with a dissolute imagination the like of which has never been seen, atheistic to the point of fanaticism, there you have me in a nutshell, and kill me again or take me as I am, for I shall not change.” > > _From the Marquis de Sade’s Last Will and Testament_ ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/4 "2001-10-25T19:10:12Z")
Except that you said in your OP that you would live a life of decadence while ‘remaining lawful’ To be a true Sadist you must abandon your belief in crime. Read Justine or Philosophy in The Bedroom for further influence. There are bits and pieces of de Sade that make him a strong influence in my life (the most obvious of which is my sexual tastes), but on the whole he seems a little extreme. jar ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/5 "2001-10-25T19:15:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > \*\*Supposing you’ve freed yourself from the untruth of religion, thusly your actions are no longer accountable to God, and you have no parental responsibilities… > \*\* Well, that’s true of me, and I don’t lead a decadent lifestyle. Honestly, I can’t afford it, for one thing. Decadence is expensive. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/6 "2001-10-25T19:24:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*Except that you said in your OP that you would live a life of decadence while ‘remaining lawful’ > > To be a true Sadist you must abandon your belief in crime. > > Read Justine or Philosophy in The Bedroom for further influence. > > There are bits and pieces of de Sade that make him a strong influence in my life (the most obvious of which is my sexual tastes), but on the whole he seems a little extreme. > > jar \*\* I included the “no crime” provision only as breaking the law would, if caught, render me unable to continue in my decadence. I must say, however, that when drunk… I AM the Marquis. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/7 "2001-10-25T19:28:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lolo \* > \*\*Supposing you’ve freed yourself from the untruth of religion, thusly your actions are no longer accountable to God, and you have no parental responsibilities… > > should you then indulge in a decadent lifestyle?\*\* Under these circumstances, I do not believe that the word “should” has any meaning. On the other hand, “should not” also has no meaning. Hmmm… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/8 "2001-10-25T19:31:20Z")
> [@](#): > > I included the “no crime” provision only as breaking the law would, if caught, render me unable to continue in my decadence. No prob. You burn the prison down, killing everyone inside. You see, Lolo…I don’t think you have the dedication to be a Libertine 😉 > [@](#): > > I must say, however, that when drunk… I AM the Marquis. I hope not. He was once imprisoned for raping a prostitute with a crucifix. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![jonfromdenver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@jonfromdenver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonfromdenver)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/9 "2001-10-25T19:32:04Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Captain Amazing_ > Well, that’s true of me, and I don’t lead a decadent lifestyle. Honestly, I can’t afford it, for one thing. Decadence is expensive. true 'dat. if booze was as cheap as the cheeseburgers i buy at mcdonald’s, i think i would stop eating. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/10 "2001-10-25T19:40:20Z")
Well, it depends upon what you mean by perverse fantasies and whims and what you mean by abuse and destroy. Regardless of whether one believes in God or not, there is still a Hobbesean moral code which prevents life from being nasty, brutish, and short. We all try to agree not to kill each other, less out of a fear of a divine vengeance than out of trying to keep our _own_ fears of being killed at bay. Not having to worry that the pretty young thing sitting behind you is going to stick a shiv between your ribs so she can steal your Chemistry notes allows a better life with time concentrated on more fulfilling pursuits- that is, rather than constantly keeping watch upon said PYT to avoid being attacked, one can actually concentrate upon the Chemistry lecture. Or indulge in fantasies about you and the PYT hitting it off and making like wild monkies in a closet. Whatever. In _my_ opinion, one’s **duty** is towards creating a stable society, one in which people can be free to love and live without fear of abuse or destruction. Without a societal code to protect the weak, all of life turns towards ensuring survival. With a societal code, people can turn their minds towards self-satisfaction or trancendensce. Read Hobbes’ _Leviathan_ to understand what I’m talking about. Thus, my statement would be that abuse or destruction that harms no unconsenting adult- yeah, sure, whatever floats your boat. You want to buy a TV just to take a sledgehammer to it? Sure. You and the GF want to engage in consenting S&M play or rape fantasies? Fine by me, though please spare me the details. But when your abuse falls into acting against the unconsenting- actually indulging in rape, murder, etc.- then you’re acting against the social compact, and therefore in my mind being immoral and wrong. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/11 "2001-10-25T19:49:17Z")
John, > [@](#): > > Without a societal code to protect the weak, all of life turns towards ensuring survival. With a societal code, people can turn their minds towards self-satisfaction or trancendensce. Without a societal code to protect the weak, we wouldn’t have the weak. If you can’t ensure your own survival what good is self satisfaction or trancendence? One of the most striking thing the Marquis ever said in Justine (just because I could picture people saying it today) was “If you want to see less poor people on the streets, stop giving them alms” those who can’t support themselves will eventually die out. If the girl behind you wants to kill you for your chemistry notes, life’s rough. Kill and be killed, just like Nature intended. jar ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/12 "2001-10-25T19:51:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* > Well, that’s true of me, and I don’t lead a decadent lifestyle. Honestly, I can’t afford it, for one thing. Decadence is expensive. \*\* tuhroooooooooooooof ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/13 "2001-10-25T19:52:49Z")
But . . . how can you atheists have any moral code? ::d&r:: ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/14 "2001-10-25T19:57:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \*Kill and be killed, just like Nature intended. > > jar \*\* On another thread I was bellyaching about those who claim to know the terorists intent and motivations. But, now **jarbabyj** claims the ability to read _Nature’s_ mind! ⭕ (jarbabyj, I actually assume you were kidding.) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/15 "2001-10-25T19:58:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Without a societal code to protect the weak, we wouldn’t have the weak. If you can’t ensure your own survival what good is self satisfaction or trancendence? I’m assuming this is some sort of joke that just whizzed over my head. If not, I guess I’ll just head on over to my mother’s house and put her out of her misery. Old bat’s just a burden on society anyway. ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/16 "2001-10-25T20:00:19Z")
People…I am not a sadist, I am simply arguing his side. For the purposes of this thread I’m simply channeling the Marquis, who says exactly that. Nature puts in us an instinct towards violence and self preservation rather than the desire to help and preserve others. It is actually my intent to show Lolo how the Marquis can tend to be a little EXTREME in his beliefs jar ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/17 "2001-10-25T20:01:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\* > I hope not. He was once imprisoned for raping a prostitute with a crucifix. > > 😃 \*\* the similarities are eerie ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/18 "2001-10-25T20:03:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > The Marquis’ Advocate Muchly appreciated. > [@](#): > > Without a societal code to protect the weak, we wouldn’t have the weak. If you can’t ensure your own survival what good is self satisfaction or trancendence? Ah, but one cannot protect oneself against all fronts. One may be strong in personal combat, but that doesn’t prevent another from throwing a rock at you. One can be able to devise shields to deflect blows, but one has to sleep _eventually_. No one is strong in _all_ areas of survival. > [@](#): > > One of the most striking thing the Marquis ever said in Justine (just because I could picture people saying it today) was > > “If you want to see less poor people on the streets, stop giving them alms” > > those who can’t support themselves will eventually die out. Yes, and what gifts do they take with them? How many doctors, physicists, authors, and writers- such as M. de Sade himself- may well have been ‘opted’ out because they stepped too slow at just the wrong time? > [@](#): > > If the girl behind you wants to kill you for your chemistry notes, life’s rough. Kill and be killed, just like Nature intended. Except that such a simplistic view of nature- like Voltaire’s “noble savage”- is vastly incorrect. Many animals _do_ work together to create a society much in the same basic outlines of our own; while the wolves have yet to develop capitalism or an appreciation of a Bordeaux '57, they do have a social strata, and fighting for dominance is not a mortal combat. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/19 "2001-10-25T20:04:19Z")
Oh, well that’s all right then. Here, I’m whooshing myself, see? ::whoosh:: > [@](#): > > If the girl behind you wants to kill you for your chemistry notes, life’s rough. Kill and be killed, just like Nature intended. Of course, if she’s smart, she’ll just rough him up a bit and get him to turn over his notes every day. ---
**Author:** ![Lolo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f475e1/32.png) [@Lolo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lolo)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598/20 "2001-10-25T20:06:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jarbabyj \* > \*\*Kill and be killed, just like Nature intended. > > jar \*\* if we all animals are killed(die) and eaten at some point, then we can and should assume it is nature’s way… can’t we? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-life-of-decadence/89598.md?page=2)