# A linguist's considered view on the prescriptive vs. descriptive controversy **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 17, 2025, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735 "2025-06-17T00:47:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2025, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/121 "2025-06-22T03:03:33Z")
I stopped searching after the 40s because too many people were temporarily climbing on the sf bandwagon, so I wasn’t familiar with it. A bit of Googling found “My Best Friends Are Martians” in the March 1950 _Writer’s Digest_, albeit by Mack Reynolds rather than Brown. It was followed by a one-pager from Heinlein titled “Bet on the Future and Win,” reprinted from the February 1950 _Bookshop News_. At the back of the issue was “Science Fiction Magazine Markets” by Reynold’s agent, listing eight titles. A brief heyday for the magazines. There was also an anonymous article on a fan convention that was as snide as anything John Simon might have written, down to slagging the beauty of the women. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2025, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/122 "2025-06-22T10:39:47Z")
Sorry about misattributing that ---
**Author:** ![hideousidiot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hideousidiot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hideousidiot)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2025, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/123 "2025-06-22T10:55:47Z")
There are two people in my department who share an office, get along with each other swimmingly, have been good friends for years but who disagree strongly on the purpose of teaching students how to write good English, which is what both of them do. One is a descriptivist and trained in linguistics and the other is a prescriptivist trained in journalism and copy-editing. The former copy-editor maintains that there absolutely is a right way and a wrong way to write things, with some gray area depending on whether you’re using the Chicago Manual of Style or the Modern Language Association guidebook, but otherwise, there are strict rules in a practical sense and he wants his students to learn those rules and put them into practice, and the one trained in linguistics feels just as strongly that we are there to teach students how to think about language, and not to drill them into following “rules” that lack any real authority. (I may be paraphrasing their arguments imprecisely—I’m in neither camp.) And these are the two most senior people in the “writing” portion of the department, so there is quite a bit of space between their positions when we’re discussing such issues as which textbooks to order for our composition classes, which exercises and prompts are useful or pointless for the students to do, what a writing class is supposed to prioritize and so on. I imagine this issue is unresolved at many other departments across the country and the world, for that matter. Unresolvable, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2025, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/124 "2025-06-22T19:37:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Okay, so in this thread, we have a self-described descriptivist who also teaches grammar. Is your contention that **Left Hand of Dorkness** is unknowingly actually a prescriptivist, or do think his pedagogy is just, “Whatever you do is fine,” and just gives everyone As no matter what they write? No, I don’t think that. I think LHoD is probably an outstanding educator, but I also think he’s unnecessarily contemptuous of those who prefer a more formal approach to language. > [@Miller](#): > > every self-described descriptivist that I’ve ever heard of also thinks literacy is important, and that we need more of it. They may think that, but it’s apparent from the statistics I cited earlier that the overall educational system is failing to promote an adequate level of literary competency. And it’s not helpful when opinionated linguists like McWhorter appear to be promoting a kind of linguistic permissiveness. > [@Miller](#): > > And if every descriptivist is also a prescriptivist, then what do we even need the word “prescriptivist” for in the first place? It’s a word I wouldn’t mind seeing dropped from the language. Whenever “prescriptivist” is used in a critical sense, it appears to refer to an outdated caricature of a super-strict grammarian with a knuckle-rapping ruler to be used on those who dare end a sentence with a preposition. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2025, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/125 "2025-06-22T21:54:05Z")
To all, I recommend reading “Tragic” by Hermann Hesse, a short story that is really short. It was published in English translation in the Hesse anthology _Stories of Five Decades._ It’s about an old-fashioned prescriptivist who works on the editorial staff of a German newspaper. He complains that the papers use the word “tragedy” too facilely, when any old bad thing happens, and that its use should be restricted to the Aristotelian definition of tragedy, with the hero’s tragic flaw, etc. I won’t spoil the ending, but I’ll tell you it is perfectly ironic. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2025, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/126 "2025-06-22T23:39:22Z")
It’s great to see that they can work together. It sounds like they have complementary approaches and the students will benefit from both of them, learning about language from someone who loves it and learning about the current accepted practices from someone who knows them very well. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/127 "2025-06-23T01:14:05Z")
I would hope that any good linguist, whatever their personal predilections, understands that there is not one English language but many overlapping English languages stemming from a variety of sources and needs. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/128 "2025-06-23T14:03:26Z")
Now you’re getting into the question of how far apart different dialects have to be before they’re considered different languages. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/129 "2025-06-23T15:33:08Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > > [@Miller](#): > > > > And if every descriptivist is also a prescriptivist, then what do we even need the word “prescriptivist” for in the first place? > > It’s a word I wouldn’t mind seeing dropped from the language. Whenever “prescriptivist” is used in a critical sense, it appears to refer to an outdated caricature of a super-strict grammarian with a knuckle-rapping ruler to be used on those who dare end a sentence with a preposition. When we see pejorative terms applied to usages that the writer disfavors, while favored usages are given praise, the label “prescriptivist” seems to fit nicely: > [@Real-world examples of 'Ummm, acktually, It's X, not Y' nitpicks, and discussion about them](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/real-world-examples-of-ummm-acktually-its-x-not-y-nitpicks-and-discussion-about-them/1019326/319): > > I’ve mentioned before that linguists who defend sloppy colloquialisms and other misuses of the English language invariably do so in impeccable language. As someone pointed out, otherwise they’d have no credibility. If, for instance, you want to defend the use of “ain’t”, you had better do it from a reasoned and learned academic perspective; you won’t get anywhere claiming that “there ain’t nuthin’ wrong with sayin’ ‘ain’t’”. The word “prescriptivist” fits this kind of post perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/130 "2025-06-23T15:43:34Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The word “prescriptivist” fits this kind of post perfectly. For some definitions of “perfectly”. There’s a very good reason that linguists write their defenses of illogical colloquialisms in faultless standard English. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/131 "2025-06-23T15:43:41Z")
When it’s not clear whether two forms of speech are different languages or just dialects of the same language, they can be called different varieties. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/132 "2025-06-23T15:51:27Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > illogical > [@wolfpup](#): > > faultless Again with the use of judgemental terms when describing different usages. It makes it impossible to interpret your posts as anything but subjective rants unfounded by scientific facts. > [@wolfpup](#): > > linguists write their defenses No, linguists do not defend usages. Please do not conflate scientists with critics. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/133 "2025-06-23T15:58:43Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > No, linguists do not defend usages. Please do not conflate scientists with critics. I’m not conflating anything. Linguists are also people, and people can be opinionated. Steven Pinker, Geoff Pullum, Mark Lieberman, and especially John McWhorter most certainly are individuals who delight in expressing subjective opinions. Their opinion pieces are not science, but they’re influential and they leverage their academic reputations. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/134 "2025-06-23T18:16:58Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Now you’re getting into the question of how far apart different dialects have to be before they’re considered different languages. Dialects are a subset of the many Englishes. Linguists identify five registers - Intimate, Casual, Formal, Frozen, and Consultative - and four levels of formality - Formal, Neutral, Informal, and Vulgar. These have many components - slang, cant, and jargon are old; Internet, leet speak, text, and emojis are new. Spoken English is not the same as Written English: you have four separate if overlapping vocabularies - Written English you use, Written English you can understand but don’t use, Spoken English you use, Spoken English you can understand but not use. Variations on standard usage include creoles, pidgins, language switching like Spanglish - is Spanglish a creole or something else? - and ASL and BSL. Dialects are also more than mere pronunciation. They can include different words, different grammar, and different patterns of emphasis. Is Indian English or Jamaican English a dialect or a Spanglish or a new language or something else? Worlds within worlds. Note that prescriptivists don’t often venture outside of formal English. Hit them with Spanglish or text and watch their heads asplode. (Popularized by Strong Bad Email and pioneered by Desi Arnaz.) @Johanna, could you layer some expertise on my gaps? ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/135 "2025-06-23T19:59:42Z")
Swedish, Norwegian, and Danish are very similar and often mutually intelligible, but they are generally considered different languages. There are hundreds of Chinese dialects (I mean of Chinese, not the unrelated languages of China). They are usually considered to be dialects of one of the languages of Mandarin, Wu, Min, Xiang, Gan, Jin, Hakka, and Yue. Some people break them up into more languages and some break them up into less. Swiss German and standard German are not mutually intelligible. There are other examples showing that it’s impossible to absolutely break up all the things spoken (or signaled by hands like sign languages) into languages and dialects. ---
**Author:** ![Aspenglow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspenglow/32/76_2.png) [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/136 "2025-06-26T01:14:51Z")
A post was merged into an existing topic: [Sonny Troll Posts](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sonny-troll-posts/1020150/11) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/137 "2025-06-23T21:41:08Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > linguists write their defenses of illogical colloquialisms In my OP I explained how that isn’t what real linguists do. That’s what educated trolls do to get cheap thrills out of poking people like you. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/138 "2025-06-23T21:48:50Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > linguists write their defenses of illogical colloquialisms > > In my OP I explained how that isn’t what real linguists do. That’s what educated trolls do to get cheap thrills out of poking people like you.   I get your point. The issue at hand here isn’t about linguistics, it’s about the fact that people are complicated and play multiple roles. I refer you back to my very first post in this thread, about Richard Lindzen, a good scientist and celebrated professor (emeritus) at MIT, and simultaneously also an argumentative contrarian and disreputable crank. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/139 "2025-06-23T21:52:49Z")
What gaps? You covered the basics pretty well. The five registers and four levels you identified make me curious where you found that. I also like the four-level division of stuff you know crossed with stuff you either use or don’t use. That conforms to a familiar psychological model of the self in society. You made me think… If a character gets a prescriptivist attitude in the use of a nonstandard lect, that could be played as a comedy trope. The classic statement on dialectology that everyone loves to quote is Max Weinrich’s “A language is a dialect with an army and navy.” In the original Yiddish, _A shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot._ ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2025, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735/140 "2025-06-23T23:07:26Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > The five registers and four levels you identified make me curious where you found that. I knew what I wanted to say but didn’t have the proper terms so I Googled until I found those. There appeared to be multiple sources for them beyond the AI that jumped in. Which raises a question from me. Will AI English become a separate form of the language? Early results note that certain words and terms are overrepresented and feedback loops from AIs gathering information from sites that used AI to generate the information create odd effects. Where it all ends knows God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-linguists-considered-view-on-the-prescriptive-vs-descriptive-controversy/1019735.md?page=8)