# A man walks into a bar **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 6, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181 "2016-09-06T13:03:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/21 "2016-09-06T18:08:12Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > Is that a legal definition of not being able to consent? In what jurisdiction? > > I was thinking more along the lines of the Occidental College case. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > No, it’s my definition. As I stated upthread, I’m not sure what the legal standard is in practice. The facts of the Occidental case as you’ve presented them (I have not yet read the article) seem to support my perception that my own definition is much in line with the legal definition, as no charges were filed in that case. Sounds like what the college did was bullshit. That’s Zero Tolerance for you. OK. The Occidental College case happened in California. The girl was 17, and in California, the age of consent is 18, so in the state where this happened, it was statutory rape. That is a particular aspect of this case that exists because it happened where it happened which would not exist had it happened in, say, Indiana, where the age of consent is 16. It is important to bear this in mind. Second, colleges can do what they want. They are free to have codes of conduct that are over and above the law. For example, the dorms at Indiana University are dry, and that includes the graduate student dorms where everyone is over 21. IU is free to expel a student for drinking in his dorm room, even if he is 23 and has legally obtained alcohol that he would be free to drink in some other location. Schools are, for that matter, free to have “No sex whatsoever” policies, and enforce them, and for all I know, there are Christian colleges that do this. School are free to have dress codes, and expel students who refuse to conform to them. A school can expel a student for doing things that “defame” the school, even if no criminal charges are filed, and it’s happened. I know of an entire fraternity that was expelled for overtly racist acts, although in the case I’m thinking of, the students were given an option to reapply after two years, so it was something in between an expulsion and a suspension, because they could come back, but they couldn’t automatically come back, just reapply. The fraternity itself was permanently barred, though. Not a single thing that any student did was illegal, just grossly inappropriate. So in short, the male student was not charged with a crime, and probably could have been, meaning he _didn’t_ “have the book thrown at him,” but he was expelled, and that is up to the school, which is free to act over and above the law. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/22 "2016-09-06T22:02:39Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The answer to this specific question is of course it isn’t rape. **That is the reason he went to the bar in the first place.** I was 16 when a 22 year old woman got me so drunk that I could barely drive home just so that she could have her way with me. I knew what was happening and didn’t even know that I was supposed to feel like a victim. As a matter of fact, I thought it was awesome at the time and my opinion hasn’t changed in the ensuing decades. The same is true for almost every man and the vast majority of women in every bar in the world. They didn’t go there to drink milk and pray. Ridiculous hypothetical cannot counter reality. **bolding mine** Taking that to its extreme, it sounds like an excellent defense. Everyone knows people go to a bar to find someone to have sex with, and s/he was in a bar, ergo, no rape. Is that really why a man goes to a bar?! ---
**Author:** ![tim-n-va](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim-n-va/32/3001_2.png) [@tim-n-va](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim-n-va)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/23 "2016-09-07T01:09:07Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > OK. The Occidental College case happened in California. The girl was 17, and in California, the age of consent is 18, so in the state where this happened, it was statutory rape. That is a particular aspect of this case that exists because it happened where it happened which would not exist had it happened in, say, Indiana, where the age of consent is 16. It is important to bear this in mind. > > \ > > So in short, the male student was not charged with a crime, and probably could have been, meaning he _didn’t_ “have the book thrown at him,” but he was expelled, and that is up to the school, which is free to act over and above the law. He was 18, she was one month under 18 so he could have been charged with a misdemeanor. “Free to act” doesn’t mean their actions are right and/or without consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/24 "2016-09-07T02:23:24Z")
> [@tim-n-va](#): > > “Free to act” doesn’t mean their actions are right and/or without consequences. Knowing the full details now… what happened to this kid sucked, but I’m not really sure what else the school was supposed to do, knowing the kid had legally committed a crime. I suspect they were concerned about their own liability. Campus rules can be really fucking arbitrary. I remember at my college, the consequences for being caught with weed were vastly different depending on if you were caught by campus police (oh boy so much trouble) or city police (they did not care.) This was in a city that features an annual ‘‘Hash Bash’’ in which people literally congregate in masses on Central Campus in order to smoke weed. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/25 "2016-09-07T02:46:01Z")
Yeah. Indiana University and it’s freaking “dry campus” rules result in some things that seem inconsistent, but on the other hand, students are aware of what consequences will be when they engage. In other words, someone well over 21, and living in a graduate dorm cannot drink in his own room, and if he does and is caught, say, because some joker happens to pull a fire alarm when the student is inebriated, he will probably be thrown out of student housing for the first incident. Since nearly all grad students living on campus are foreign students who don’t have other options, because they have financial aid that will pay the university for housing, but won’t pay an off-campus landlord, they are screwed. However, if a freshman, who is living on campus, because IU has a requirement that freshmen live either on campus or with family, is busted for underage drinking **off-campus** , and actually charged with a crime, and even spends a night in jail, and pays a fine, possibly getting probation or community service if he did anything while he was drunk, like minor incidents of vandalism (say, tagging a wall in an alleyway), the university isn’t going to care at all. Unless the night in jail caused him to miss an exam and he asks for a retake, no one on campus cares a whit. (Extraordinary acts, like breaking storefront windows and looting might cause the school to take notice, though.) CAVEAT: I have not lived in Bloomington, IN for a few years, and have not taken a class at IU for many years. If the policy has changed in the last few years, good, but my post reflects the policy the last time I had much to do with campus life. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/26 "2016-09-07T16:57:58Z")
If he didn’t consent, he was raped. If he did, then it was consensual. Intoxication can make it impossible to consent, but doesn’t always, no matter the gender. Having sex with a drunk person is rape if they didn’t consent or were incapable of consent, and is not rape if they did consent. It’s not terribly difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/27 "2016-09-07T17:00:15Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > Campus rules can be really fucking arbitrary. I remember at my college, the consequences for being caught with weed were vastly different depending on if you were caught by campus police (oh boy so much trouble) or city police (they did not care.) My campus was the opposite. The administration had to formally tell local law enforcement to stay off campus unless invited and refrain from busting our students. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/28 "2016-09-07T17:56:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If he didn’t consent, he was raped. If he did, then it was consensual. Intoxication can make it impossible to consent, but doesn’t always, no matter the gender. Having sex with a drunk person is rape if they didn’t consent or were incapable of consent, and\*\* is not rape if they did consent.\*\* > > It’s not terribly difficult. **bolding mine** But what does consent mean? A stated Yes, not saying no…? In the other thread about the swimmer rapist, he claimed she was consenting because she rubbed his back. Who knows. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/29 "2016-09-07T18:32:35Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > **bolding mine** But what does consent mean? A stated Yes, not saying no…? In the other thread about the swimmer rapist, he claimed she was consenting because she rubbed his back. Who knows. Consent is clear and unambiguous – “yes &$#% me now!” or unmistakable physical encouragement, or something else that is extremely clear. It’s really not hard to make sure that one’s partner is definitely consenting. It can be as simple as “are you okay with this?” and “yes!”. ---
**Author:** ![Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90ced4/32.png) [@Waltzes\_with\_Cacti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waltzes_with_Cacti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2016, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181/30 "2016-09-09T14:36:13Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > . \The answer to this specific question is of course it isn’t rape. That is the reason he went to the bar in the first place. I was 16 when a 22 year old woman got me so drunk that I could barely drive home just so that she could have her way with me. I knew what was happening and didn’t even know that I was supposed to feel like a victim. As a matter of fact, I thought it was awesome at the time and my opinion hasn’t changed in the ensuing decades. The same is true for almost every man and the vast majority of women in every bar in the world. They didn’t go there to drink milk and pray. Ridiculous hypothetical cannot counter reality. Did this happen in late December back in '63? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-man-walks-into-a-bar/765181.md?page=1)