# A mandated "license to have kids," what should be on the test? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 25, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501 "2020-02-25T16:54:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/41 "2020-02-29T07:09:10Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > For starters what do I wish all kids had? > > 1. Economic security. > > 2. Raised by a natural parent on home-cooked meals. > > 3. Emotionally stable family. > > 4. A home environment that values education. > > So, then, any committee of competent social workers, in a few hours, could formulate a simple test that would indicate whether a couple is prepared to meet these four basic criteria. It would be foolish, wasteful and counterproductive to try to screen for minor details like keeping car tires properly inflated, or sharp objects in a locked drawer. Too many babies would be thrown out with that bathwater. > > You don’t need to test against the one child in thousands that will die playing with guns or roasting in a car. You need to test against the one in 2 or 3 who will drop out of education or grow up in child-care or nourished by Ramen surrounded by anger and poverty Childcare isn’t a bad thing for a child. Nor necessarily is being raised by someone other than a “natural parent”, whatever you mean by that. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/42 "2020-02-29T08:38:43Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Childcare isn’t a bad thing for a child. Nor necessarily is being raised by someone other than a “natural parent”, whatever you mean by that. If the parents have neither the wish nor the time to be the fulll-time parents of their own children, one has to question their incentive for wanting to have them. Being a parent should not be something with an ulterior motive. Nor the selfish fulfillment of the reproductive instinct. Nor an accident that you shrug off and try not to botch up too badly. Actually, there is a better alternative to licensure. Freely accessible and socially acceptable abortion and reliable, easy birth control. That would take care of a great majority of births of not-really-wanted and soon-to-be neglected and abused children that licensing would weed out. Look – parents are volunteers. If you don’t want to do it right, don’t rraise your hand. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2020, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/43 "2020-02-29T09:32:22Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > Spotting the signs of drowning? Are the child’s nose and mouth underwater?\* Is the child not able getting their head about water? This is not as tricky as spotting the signs of a child playing on a freeway. Is this a freeway? Is there a child playing on it? \*It actually happened. I helped my cousin take his three toddlers / small children (he had twins so they were all very small) swimming. We both had one child and then shared looking at the third. In just a few moments while we were both busy, the older girl fell into the water and didn’t get back up. Damn that was scary. I never took both my kids by myself until my daughter was old enough. > [@Shodan](#): > > Are you over the age of 21? Yes/no. Looking at the list and how it applied to my parents: Check! Parents were both over 21 [QUOTE] [li]What is the highest level of education you have completed? [ul][_]Less than high school [_]High school graduate [_]Some college [_]College graduate [\*]Post-graduate degree[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] College graduate for both of them. [QUOTE] [li]Are you married? Yes/no.[/li][/QUOTE] They were married. [QUOTE] [li]Have you ever been convicted of a felony?[/li][/QUOTE] No. [QUOTE] [li]On average, how many alcoholic drinks do you consume during the week?[/li][ul][li]0-5[_]5-10[_]More than 10[/ul][/list][/li][/QUOTE] Zero! Mormons! > [@](#): > > PS - Based largely on things like [this](https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childabuseandneglect/riskprotectivefactors.html). The problem with my family was that my father was extremely abusive. Enough so, that it caused mental illness in a couple of my siblings. While some of factors listed here can contribute, child abuse can happen to all classes of people and all levels of education. It can happen with married people and nonfelons. People who abuse children are going to lie on a test anyway so I really don’t see the point of one. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/44 "2020-03-01T00:55:09Z")
I’m sorry for what you endured, TokyoBayer. Thanks for sharing your story. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/45 "2020-03-01T05:51:14Z")
It’s fun to think about a test like this. But all the questions and pamphlets and information and doctor’s instructions etc,etc can all be summed up in one sentence: When the kid is 3-5 years old, at bedtime-- which story books will you read to him? How long will you hug him while reading to him? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/46 "2020-03-01T13:39:08Z")
If we’re going full on scary authoritarian bad idea, a simple financial test. Can you care (feed clothe shelter educate) for a child without taxpayer assistance? Yes? Then the doctors take out your contraceptive implant. Of course I’d expect that to result in rather steep population decline. Revolution. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/47 "2020-03-01T13:48:22Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > You are probably trying to be funny, but that’s actually pretty racist. Since when is calling little white girls with assorted "Y"s dropped into their name because Mommy wanted a yoonique spelling racist? ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/48 "2020-03-01T14:46:15Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > Dude. OP asked what should be on a parenting test and gave the example of kids left in hot cars as an example of what we’re trying to avoid. Several people pointed out that even the best parents can make that mistake. I pointed out, with examples, that some of the best parents I’ve seen wouldn’t pass any of the tests people had suggested so far, due to being young, unmarried, uneducated, etc. and also, that these tests already exist for foster parents, but they fail to weed out the monsters. And then you seriously say \*that’s nice and all, but what’s the relevance? That mom sounds great, but let’s give her kids to someone who’s taken a childcare course, has a partner or family members to serve as back-ups, and has more money. \* > > So let me be more explicit. Your suggestions that poor people shouldn’t be allowed to have kids are classist bullshit and have nothing to do with the well-being of children. You had an opportunity here to learn something about why children suffer and die at the hands of their parents and what can be done to help them (and which if your novel ideas have already been tried), but it seems you prefer to remain ignorant. I haven’t said anything like what you’re accusing me of. Not even in the same ballpark, and it’s a vile accusation. I didn’t say the Mum’s kids should be taken away (I said I was glad it worked out for her), and I didn’t say poor people shouldn’t have kids. The income part was in a theoretical situation - that you cut off. You are misrepresenting me in quite a vile way and I would like an apology. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/49 "2020-03-03T01:10:19Z")
Oh, do tell us how saying you’d go for a requirement that someone can only have kids if s/he “has enough money to sustain the family for a few months if they get laid off, or their back-ups agree to support them,” isn’t saying anything like “poor people shouldn’t be allowed to have kids.” I’m very interested in your definition of “poor.” You seem to think this is just some fanciful science fiction hypothetical. It’s not. Real children are really being taken away from their parents, today, in this world we’re living in. Some of the children being taken away shouldn’t be, and some who should be, aren’t. Holding and voicing classist (or racist, or sexist, or otherwise bigoted) opinions about how to recognize a good parent influences the process by encouraging calls to CPS for non-issues, which diverts resources from where they’re needed. It also influences the availability of taxpayer funds to help vs to merely punish. You’re welcome to voice your opinions anyway, but don’t expect not to be called out. And don’t hold your breath for an apology. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/50 "2020-03-03T14:04:16Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > Oh, do tell us how saying you’d go for a requirement that someone can only have kids if s/he “has enough money to sustain the family for a few months if they get laid off, or their back-ups agree to support them,” isn’t saying anything like “poor people shouldn’t be allowed to have kids.” I’m very interested in your definition of “poor.” > > You seem to think this is just some fanciful science fiction hypothetical. It’s not. Real children are really being taken away from their parents, today, in this world we’re living in. Some of the children being taken away shouldn’t be, and some who should be, aren’t. Holding and voicing classist (or racist, or sexist, or otherwise bigoted) opinions about how to recognize a good parent influences the process by encouraging calls to CPS for non-issues, which diverts resources from where they’re needed. It also influences the availability of taxpayer funds to help vs to merely punish. You’re welcome to voice your opinions anyway, but don’t expect not to be called out. And don’t hold your breath for an apology. The OP was asking about a theoretical situation, not the real world. I don’t know if that’s what they intended, but having a licence to have kids is an inherently alternate world scenario, but it’s impossible in the real world. So I responded to the scifi scenario, with some caveats. Here’s the bit you cut off: > [@](#): > > In your theoretical situation, which is a scifi one, not real life, I’m assuming there’s universal contraception so that people can actually choose to be parents rather than it accidentally happening. No forced abortions or forced adoptions. And I assume we’re talking newborns. That is clearly not real life. (Though I should have specified universal and _perfect_ contraception). These are not ways to recognise a good parent _now_. I’m clearly not advocating people having their children taken away now - note that I said “no forced adoptions.” And I said I was glad that the woman you were talking about didn’t lose her kids, so it’s an outright lie for you to claim I want her kids taken away. And I’m a disabled parent on a low income, so you can get off your high horse. Funny how it’s my post you’ve attacked and nobody else’s. Are you going to respond to them as angrily as you have to me? I made it EXTREMELY clear that I was not talking about the world as it is now. In the world as it is now, social services fairly often gets it wrong, removing kids who should stay at home and leaving kids who shouldn’t, for a whole variety of reasons including negative prejudices about class, race and sexuality. But that’s a different thread topic. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/51 "2020-03-04T22:53:59Z")
The prejudices you’re voicing don’t stop being prejudices just because you insist this would only apply in a hypothetical scenario to prevent people having kids, as opposed to taking kids away. ---
**Author:** ![DorkVader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DorkVader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DorkVader)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/52 "2020-03-05T02:20:28Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > Thank you. > > I actually have an even worse published case about children being abused by their adoptive parents who had passed all the tests, though I don’t recommend reading it if you ever want to sleep again: _In re A.E._ (2019) 38 Cal.App.5th 1124. > [https://cadependencyonlineguide.info/view/cases/16237.PDF](https://cadependencyonlineguide.info/view/cases/16237.PDF) I would opine that a psychological evaluation would be a good place to start, maybe identify some red flags that would say no, or areas that can and need to be improved and developed etc. but after reading this transcript, now I’m less certain how effective or useful such an evaluation would actually be. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2020, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501/53 "2020-03-05T11:46:47Z")
> [@Esprise\_Me](#): > > The prejudices you’re voicing don’t stop being prejudices just because you insist this would only apply in a hypothetical scenario to prevent people having kids, as opposed to taking kids away. He flat out wrote that kids shouldn’t be taken away. Well before you jumped on him. That said, “can you afford the results of this decision” is damn sound advice, not prejudice. And following it would alleviate far more suffering than questions about back seats or bathwater. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-mandated-license-to-have-kids-what-should-be-on-the-test/848501.md?page=2)