# A matter of national security **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [March 26, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215 "2018-03-26T17:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/21 "2018-03-27T09:49:08Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Not true. You can get a TS or TS/SCI with just an SSBI. Lots of TS positions require a poly, but not all, and u would expect a minority actually do. > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > That has not been my experience. > > Stranger I’ve never been given a polygraph, but I did hold a TS clearance from 1980 to at least 1991 (when I left the Navy). For all I know, it’s still active. That is, I’ve never been notified of a revocation. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/22 "2018-03-27T12:00:58Z")
Googling suggests that polygraphs are _very_ rarely given to uniformed military, or by agencies other than CIA, NSA, etc. Polygraphs may be given to civilian applicants in a few cases: (1) There is suspicion or allegation against the applicant. (2) The applicant is a foreigner. (3) The clearance is for Sensitive Compartmented Information or Counterintelligence. (4) Polygraph may be requested if the hiring agency (e.g. CIA) lacks the time or motive to do a thorough vetting. Working at a Silicon Valley company which sold a machine to CIA, several engineers were asked to take a polygraph to be pre-cleared in case malfunction required us to visit the machine’s site. We all refused. (I’m pretty sure we were in case 4 above.) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/23 "2018-03-27T12:59:24Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > passing a poly test is a requirement for Top Secret clearance or higher Not true. I’ve never had a poly test and have had TS since 1992. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/24 "2018-03-27T13:40:31Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > That has not been my experience. > > Stranger It certainly was mine when I held one. Admittedly, it was a long time ago - 20+ years - but I just filled out endless forms, had a fairly lengthy interview and waited for a while. ETA, since there’s so much military here, that mine was Dept of State, Diplomatic. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/25 "2018-03-27T13:57:48Z")
Well, I guess I stand corrected on a polygraph for TS clearances. It Trump had to take one, though, he’d probably send the machine on overload and give the operator a nervous breakdown trying to keep up with the lies. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/26 "2018-03-27T14:10:26Z")
When I was in the Navy I had a TS-SCI clearance, and I don’t recall ever being given a polygraph. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/27 "2018-03-27T14:19:55Z")
As I understand it, the President and members of Congress don’t have any level of security clearance (unless they already did before they were elected for whatever other reason). They’re outside of the system of security clearance. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/28 "2018-03-27T14:40:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As I understand it, the President and members of Congress don’t have any level of security clearance (unless they already did before they were elected for whatever other reason). They’re outside of the system of security clearance. That is my understanding as well. However, Congress still has to demonstrate a “need-to-know” to get access to information. Jane Smith from Arkansas’s 3rd can’t just request true names of all Chinese sources. The President, I believe, is assumed to have a need to know. Although how that would work in practice might vary. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/29 "2018-03-27T15:13:36Z")
There have been [reports](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjMpcLi44zaAhVGMawKHVkDAJ0QFghDMAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fspies-keep-intelligence-from-donald-trump-1487209351&usg=AOvVaw3IZf9-yRH_Ke7pZVyHCrhI)that intelligence was withheld from the President for fear of leaks. The [Director of National Intelligence](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjMpcLi44zaAhVGMawKHVkDAJ0QFghWMAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.politico.com%2Fstory%2F2017%2F02%2Foffice-director-national-intelligence-trump-intel-wsj-235080&usg=AOvVaw03BTwT5u_ORuvEZZkHf_-z) denies it. I can’t find out if withholding intelligence information from the President is illegal, but I suspect it would be a bad career move, no matter who the President. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/30 "2018-03-27T15:15:25Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Well, I guess I stand corrected on a polygraph for TS clearances. It Trump had to take one, though, he’d probably send the machine on overload and give the operator a nervous breakdown trying to keep up with the lies. He’d probably just submit a letter signed by a polygraph expert saying that Trump had passed the test with excellent results and told the greatest truths ever. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/31 "2018-03-27T15:29:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There have been [reports](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjMpcLi44zaAhVGMawKHVkDAJ0QFghDMAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fspies-keep-intelligence-from-donald-trump-1487209351&usg=AOvVaw3IZf9-yRH_Ke7pZVyHCrhI)that intelligence was withheld from the President for fear of leaks. The [Director of National Intelligence](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjMpcLi44zaAhVGMawKHVkDAJ0QFghWMAc&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.politico.com%2Fstory%2F2017%2F02%2Foffice-director-national-intelligence-trump-intel-wsj-235080&usg=AOvVaw03BTwT5u_ORuvEZZkHf_-z) denies it. > > I can’t find out if withholding intelligence information from the President is illegal, but I suspect it would be a bad career move, no matter who the President. It would probably be fairly easy to withhold classified information from Trump, if intelligence officials chose to do so. He reportedly likes to have the information given to him be in as brief a form as possible. So that would justify leaving out any classified information. If Trump gave a specific order like _“I want to have a list containing the names of everyone in Russia who’s working for American intelligence”_ then the intelligence officials would probably stall - _“I’m sorry, Mr President, we don’t have that information on us. But we’ll start putting that list together right away when we get back to our office and get it to you as soon as it’s complete.”_ - and count on the President’s attention span to wander off to some other subject within a day or two. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/32 "2018-03-27T17:25:24Z")
In principle, even the President must have a need to know, but if the President says “I need to know”, there’s nobody who can gainsay him. And of course, there’s a lot of information which the President could ask for, but probably won’t, and if he doesn’t ask for it, it won’t be volunteered to him. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/33 "2018-03-27T17:36:44Z")
Technically, as chief executive the President of the United States has plenary authority to determine the classification of any data. As a practical matter he (or the hypothetical she) rarely does so and that authority is delegated down to the appropriate functional level, but the President could classify or declassify any information and of course demand to be briefed on anything. Whether he is capable of the degree of responsibility to do so is another question entirely but one that is beyond the scope of law short of impeachment and removal by the Senate. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/34 "2018-03-27T18:33:02Z")
Another military person here, chiming in that my TS clearance did not require a polygraph, nor to the best of my knowledge was anyone else in my unit, where such clearances are common, subjected to one. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/35 "2018-03-27T21:34:47Z")
maybe the Pentagon finally figured out what courts figured out long ago, that polygraphs are crap. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/36 "2018-03-28T16:28:22Z")
Maybe we should make a security clearance a prerequisite for taking office. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/37 "2018-03-28T17:10:30Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Maybe we should make a security clearance a prerequisite for taking office. Letting the military decide who is not suitable for running for office is an idea straight out of the dictator handbook. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/38 "2018-03-28T17:22:20Z")
The military is not the only organization that can grant security clearances. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/39 "2018-03-28T17:39:34Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The military is not the only organization that can grant security clearances. Well, let’s broaden **drad dog** ’s suggestion to “national security apparatus.” Which makes the statement more applicable while remaining batshit creepy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215/40 "2018-03-28T18:26:48Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > Well, let’s broaden **drad dog** ’s suggestion to “national security apparatus.” Which makes the statement more applicable while remaining batshit creepy. Or worse, the Office of Personnel Management (which is responsible for background investigations on the vast majority of government clearance holders) would suddenly have a name that is far more creepy and foreboding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-matter-of-national-security/811215.md?page=3)