# A medley of questions for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076 "2005-07-11T23:11:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/21 "2005-07-12T15:10:12Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Why? Well isn’t god omnipotent? That would mean he would be responsible for everything. Including the volcano, the island being close to the volcano, the bus being the only transportation, etc. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/22 "2005-07-12T15:10:34Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Why? Because if you wish to posit that God is a helpless and unknowing actor in a universe which he did not create and does not know every aspect of, past, present and future, and has no power whatsoever to change anything in that universe, then we’re no longer talking about anything that even superficially resembles God as believed by Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/23 "2005-07-12T15:11:52Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Because if you wish to posit that God is a helpless and unknowing actor in a universe which he did not create and does not know every aspect of, past, present and future, and has no power whatsoever to change anything in that universe, then we’re no longer talking about anything that even superficially resembles God as believed by Christians. Er, you don’t have to posit all that for the analogy to be valid. You just have to posit that there are certain natural laws that even God (voluntarily) obeys. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/24 "2005-07-12T15:14:10Z")
Once again, that was outside the explicit scope of the analogy; maybe that makes it a poor analogy, but it’s completely pointless picking away at attributes of the analogy that are _different_ from the object or situation being illustrated; _ **all** _ analogies are _in some way_ unlike the object or situation they illustrate, by definition, or they wouldn’t be analogies at all. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/25 "2005-07-12T15:15:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by jayjay > Because if you wish to posit that God is a helpless and unknowing actor in a universe which he did not create and does not know every aspect of, past, present and future, and has no power whatsoever to change anything in that universe, then we’re no longer talking about anything that even superficially resembles God as believed by Christians. > Er, you don’t have to posit all that for the analogy to be valid. You just have to posit that there are certain natural laws that even God (voluntarily) obeys Yes, but you then have to deal with the fact that He’d rather voluntarily obey seemingly capricious limits He’s set for himself than alleviate the infinite suffering of His creatures that almost certainly don’t merit such treatment. ---
**Author:** ![drgnrdr07](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71e660/32.png) [@drgnrdr07](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drgnrdr07)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/26 "2005-07-12T15:15:48Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Er, you don’t have to posit all that for the analogy to be valid. You just have to posit that there are certain natural laws that even God (voluntarily) obeys. Why would God continue to follow laws that create suffering for humans? If he voluntarily follows laws that he could break to save us shouldn’t there be some good reason? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/27 "2005-07-12T15:16:35Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Er, you don’t have to posit all that for the analogy to be valid. You just have to posit that there are certain natural laws that even God (voluntarily) obeys. Here’s where the situation gets complicated, though. If God voluntarily obeys these natural laws, and these natural laws cause human beings to be condemned to eternal torment for eternity, then you cannot call God omnibenevolent. On the other hand, if God HAS to obey these laws, then you cannot call him omnipotent. It’s a catch-22 that I’ve never been able to work my way logically out of, and one of the reasons that I do not hold to any traditionally Christian view of God now. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/28 "2005-07-12T15:18:50Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Once again, that was outside the explicit scope of the analogy; maybe that makes it a poor analogy, but it’s completely pointless picking away at attributes of the analogy that are _different_ from the object or situation being illustrated; _ **all** _ analogies are _in some way_ unlike the object or situation they illustrate, by definition, or they wouldn’t be analogies at all. I’m sorry, **Mangetout** , but the analogy in question is different from the hypothetical “real” situation in so many ways that it’s just not a very good analogy. Yes, all analogies are different _in some way_ from the situation they try to describe, but this one is very significantly different in too many ways to be useful. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/29 "2005-07-12T15:18:59Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > If God voluntarily obeys these natural laws, and these natural laws cause human beings to be condemned to eternal torment for eternity, then you cannot call God omnibenevolent. What do you mean by “omnibenevolent”? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/30 "2005-07-12T15:27:27Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > What do you mean by “omnibenevolent”? I believe it’s to be parsed as “good-willed towards everything” or, informally “infinitely loving”. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/31 "2005-07-12T15:28:34Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I believe it’s to be parsed as “good-willed towards everything” or, informally “infinitely loving”. Oh dear. You-know-who has infected my comma key. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/32 "2005-07-12T15:29:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Er, you don’t have to posit all that for the analogy to be valid. You just have to posit that there are certain natural laws that even God (voluntarily) obeys. Sounds like God has issues in taking responsibility. If God created Hell, set up the policy on why people get sent to Hell, and then enforces that policy, then God is sending people to Hell. Suppose you walk into my house and I slap you. You ask me why I did it and I say I had no choice; there’s a rule in my house that everybody who comes in gets slapped by me and there’s no exceptions. You ask me where that rule came from and I tell you I made it up myself. Is it still true to say I had no choice? Of course not. Having arbitrarily created the rule, I cannot blame the rule for my actions. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/33 "2005-07-12T15:29:33Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > What do you mean by “omnibenevolent”? Just what it says. “All-good”. That IS an attribute of the Christian God. So you can either have an omnibenevolent God that’s bullied around by the laws of the universe, or you can have an omnipotent God who apparently doesn’t care enough about his creations to change a few things. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/34 "2005-07-12T15:31:56Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not a christian myself but this statement is another ridiculous generality. Not all christians believe in the bible in a literal way. To pull out this passage and make a statement such as “This is what you must believe if you claim to be a Christian.” is a blatant display of ignorence. Stop embarrassing yourself. Yeah. I guess you’re right. The explicit words of Christ Himself should not be used as an authority regarding what Christ meant. All Christians should be able to write their own versions of the Gospel according to their comfort levels. Hey, maybe you, Mr. Genius, can explain where the authority of Christianity lies if the Gospels are rendered completely subjective? ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/35 "2005-07-12T15:34:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > unnecessarily hostile That’s a good description of the absolute doctrine of eternal damnation. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/36 "2005-07-12T15:37:41Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > That’s a good description of the absolute doctrine of eternal damnation. Only if you give a damn one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/37 "2005-07-12T15:44:55Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > So you can either have an omnibenevolent God that’s bullied around by the laws of the universe … How is he being bullied if he voluntarily complies with the laws, and agrees with them? I don’t see a contradiction between loving someone and being forced (by their own conscious behaviour) to seperate yourself from them. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > If God created Hell, set up the policy on why people get sent to Hell, and then enforces that policy, then God is sending people to Hell. I don’t think it’s a given that God was the one who set up the policy. I think it’s possible that he obeys certain natural laws because they’re natural and universal; he created the system but he can’t change the morality of the acts that occur within because it doesn’t make sense to change the morality of an act if you view morality as an invariant property of the act. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/38 "2005-07-12T15:51:27Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Hey, maybe you, Mr. Genius, can explain where the authority of Christianity lies if the Gospels are rendered completely subjective? That would be with the reader, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/39 "2005-07-12T15:58:35Z")
Maybe the rejection of one tenet of Christ opens the door for the rest. Maybe if you can find one saying so unpalatable or even impossible it allows for a liberal interpretation for every other tenet you dislike. “Don’t swear oaths. It is of Satan.” Ah, Jesus grow up. How can that hurt. “Don’t resist an evil person.” Get outta here, I’ll kick his ass! “Love your enemy.” Jesus, dude, you’re way too naive. See above. “Lend hoping for nothing in return.” Ever hear of “the banking system” (Man this Jesus is way stupid.) “Deny yourself, forsake the things of this world, sell what you have and give to the poor, woe to the rich, blessed are the poor.” Sorry Jesus, your just a little passe’. But your still our Lord though. Lookin’ forward to that salvation thing you owe us. Now run along, you’re embarrassing us in front of our friends. Oh, and by the way Jesus, don’t tell us how to run your business, we’ll tell you. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/40 "2005-07-12T16:22:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Suppose you walk into my house and I slap you. You ask me why I did it and I say I had no choice; there’s a rule in my house that everybody who comes in gets slapped by me and there’s no exceptions. You ask me where that rule came from and I tell you I made it up myself. Is it still true to say I had no choice? Of course not. Having arbitrarily created the rule, I cannot blame the rule for my actions. I believe you have an incorrect assumption here. God does not specifically “send” someone to Hell (certain dramatic passages notwithstanding). Rather, those who do evil seperate themselves from God. He doesn’t want this, but will accept the choice, however poor, of those who do so. > [@](#): > > Maybe if you can find one saying so unpalatable or even impossible it allows for a liberal interpretation for every other tenet you dislike. Actually, Ex Machina is _finally_ made a half-decent point, albeit with pointless wailing and gnashing of teeth. In fact, this is a certainly a danger. However, one should recall that the Bible, while exceptionally holy, is not the sole repository of human knowledge and wisdom. It is a book, one which has been translated, mistranslated, and misunderstod at times. Everything Jesus ever said was said for a reason, and to comprehend properly the value of his statements you must consider the following: Whom was he speaking to? (And no, “poor Jews” doesn’t suffice, IHMO) What was the purpose of his statements? Why is this message important? You may think this is an intelectual escape hatch. I, however, do not feel that Jesus’ teachings were almost ever simple. Just as God is not something you can hold in your hand, neither did Jesus easy lessons. The best teachers never do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076.md?page=3)