# A medley of questions for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076 "2005-07-11T23:11:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/41 "2005-07-12T16:55:24Z")
Jesus said “difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.” Commitment is not supposed to be easy. It’s not as simple as “coming on down to the front!.” What is the difficult “way”? Jesus said “I am the Way.” Meaning He is the example of how to lead your life. And suffering, being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, being humiliated, is the way. Few can do this. Entire populations can’t. There is no such thing as a “Christian nation” because a nation cannot survive if it does this. But what if you can summon the strength to make the commitment, the total commitment which enables you to overcome death, to overcome worldly fears? Then the cross, the burden becomes light. When you find the difficult way the burdens of life are relieved. But don’t make the mistake of making your own way, don’t clear-cut the wilderness and try to pave a bumpless expressway to heaven. Don’t circumvent the teachings of Jesus to make your time of tribulation a pleasure palace. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/42 "2005-07-12T16:57:14Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think it’s a given that God was the one who set up the policy. I think it’s possible that he obeys certain natural laws because they’re natural and universal; he created the system but he can’t change the morality of the acts that occur within because it doesn’t make sense to change the morality of an act if you view morality as an invariant property of the act. Who created the universe? God Who created Hell? God Who created the system where people who sinned went to Hell? God Who decided what was a sin? God Who wrote the natural laws? God Who created and defined morality? God Who keeps everything running this way? God The problem is that you can’t give God all the power and then claim he has no responsibility for what happens. > [@](#): > > I believe you have an incorrect assumption here. God does not specifically “send” someone to Hell (certain dramatic passages notwithstanding). Rather, those who do evil seperate themselves from God. He doesn’t want this, but will accept the choice, however poor, of those who do so. Same argument. Hell didn’t suddenly appear and start sucking people in. Hell is there because God created it as a place where sinners would go. God could change his mind at any time and decide to let sinners into Heaven. People go to Hell because God created and maintains a system that sends people to Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/43 "2005-07-12T17:15:12Z")
So, Minoru Yamasaki was responsible for 9/11? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/44 "2005-07-12T17:36:57Z")
Why is it that when it’s in Christians’ interests to promote the grandeur of God he’s this omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent supreme being, but when they want to excuse him for the rather less-than-compassionate way the universe is (traditionally) set up, he’s just this guy? ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/45 "2005-07-12T18:01:08Z")
Why would God create a being with free will and at the same time a punishment which inhibited the exercise of that will? Why would anyone believe in a god that cruel? Free will and the idea of eternal damnation, even if you conceive of it as eternal separation, don’t fit together. A choice made out of fear is no choice. And a God who is pure love would not prepare an eternal torture chamber for His disobedient children. The explanations for god’s methods are so circular they simply make you shake your head and laugh. “Why didn’t God just make trusting loving creatures?” - Because He wanted them to come to Him on their own free will. “What if they don’t?” - Eternal suffering. “So if they don’t really have freedom to choose, then why did He not simply create trusting loving creatures?” - Etc., etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/46 "2005-07-12T18:26:45Z")
How can a supposedly benevolent and just God sentence anyone to infinite punishment (Hell) for finite sins? Does even the most unrepentant murderer really deserve a thousand million trillion years of pain and suffering for one murder? How about another thousand million trillion years, and yet another, and another ad infinitum? How about a petty thief? Or a just unbeliever? OK. The wages of sin is DEATH. Not Hell, death. Ex Machina, when you quote the Gospel of Matthew, as you did here, > [@Ex Machina](#): > > “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth… So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” > > (Matt 13:41-42, 49-50) What you are getting is a metaphorical reference to the destruction of the flesh. Now, if I were burned to death, I would likely wail and gnash my teeth, as, I suspect, would most. \*\* But where in your quote is “forever” or “eternally” mentioned?\*\* Answer this question. Those who sin, die. That’s all. I don’t know where you’re getting this “eternal punishment” vibe, but you might want to read some books. I suggest you start with the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/47 "2005-07-12T18:36:11Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not a christian myself but this statement is another ridiculous generality. Not all christians believe in the bible in a literal way. To pull out this passage and make a statement such as “This is what you must believe if you claim to be a Christian.” is a blatant display of ignorence. Stop embarrassing yourself. but…the bible says it. what does it mean? ---
**Author:** ![BrianJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@BrianJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianJ)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/48 "2005-07-12T18:36:35Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Well, I suppose if we’re just doing parables, the counter-argument from the Christian camp will be something like this: > > A wealthy man discovers that a volcano will soon erupt, destroying a small village, so, with no thought to the cost, he hires a fleet of buses to evacuate the occupants. > > One of the residents says that she’s really big on the idea of being rescued, but she’s just not all that sure that travelling by bus is really ‘her’, at least not right now. > > He replies “But if you don’t come with me, you’re going to be engulfed by molten rock and you’ll die a really horrible death!” > > “What kind of choice is that?” she asks. “How can you be so cruel?”… But the wealthy man in your parable did not cer==reate the volcano…😉 ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/49 "2005-07-12T18:43:04Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Yeah. I guess you’re right. The explicit words of Christ Himself should not be used as an authority regarding what Christ meant. > > All Christians should be able to write their own versions of the Gospel according to their comfort levels. > > Hey, maybe you, Mr. Genius, can explain where the authority of Christianity lies if the Gospels are rendered completely subjective? ummm…but the bible wasnt made by God. It was written by some guys who needed to make money. it isnt the ideal i have a problem with…just the manipulation involved. rev. jesses jackson paid his mistress 5 mil… the catholic church is still spenidng millions on the NAMBLA initiative they were involved in. the vatican owns 30% of all buildings in the world. every day more and more the bible gets tweaked to be better well recieved in relation to what the world economy needs. the bible glorifies cannabis. our pastors dont tell us to smoke it because it opens minds and we’d wake up and realise we’re being taken advantage of. that’s my opinion and id like to discuss it if it doesnt mean hi-jacking the thread. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/50 "2005-07-12T18:59:46Z")
> [@](#): > > the vatican owns 30% of all buildings in the world. And 72.683% of all statistics are made up on the spot. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/51 "2005-07-12T19:04:48Z")
> [@](#): > > the bible glorifies cannabis. Where? _leafs furiously_ Man, I’ve been reading the wrong Bible. [sub]LEAFS furiously. hee. made a funny, i did.[/sub] OP, has the question been answered to your satisfaction? Or do you have follow-ups? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/52 "2005-07-12T19:05:29Z")
> [@masterchief243](#): > > but…the bible says it. what does it mean? It means that a man is given whatever it is that he most values. ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/53 "2005-07-12T19:14:44Z")
so guys lets not fool ourselves. the bible (based on hebrew translations) is just the result of centuries of finite tweaking. it’s only used to justify economic gain or poolitical footing. Any of you ladies appreciate your right to vote? the church sure didnt because the bible didnt like it. any other black people here? the catholic church sure didnt mind saying we were less than property and didnt mind backing the supreme court saying blacks werent even human. what about homosexuals? when you have a silent minority its easy to tell people theyre going to hell. however, curious enough i saw a news report about how the church is considering church sanctioned same-sex union/marriage. i mean why wouldnt they with all the money “faggots” tend to generate. dont worry, the bible will change its mind soon enough. so we could sit and reference scripture all day long. youre just quoting some dead guy. i cant say the religion is ridiculous…and i cant say it isnt. it cant be proven false NOR true. so how about…we just sit back and live good lives and think about the welfare of others…christian…jew…muslim…buddhist. i mean…because in the end…what the hell do we know anyway? ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/54 "2005-07-12T19:16:09Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It means that a man is given whatever it is that he most values. no…not the gist of it…translate and tell me exactly what it is saying. give me the same scripture and break it down. ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/55 "2005-07-12T19:25:54Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > Where? > > _leafs furiously_ > Man, I’ve been reading the wrong Bible. > [sub]LEAFS furiously. hee. made a funny, i did.[/sub] > > OP, has the question been answered to your satisfaction? Or do you have follow-ups? It amazes me that every time you ask someone who “knows the bible” they have no clue to certain things. THEN GOD SAID, I GIVE YOU EVERY SEED-BEARING PLANT ON THE FACE OF THE WHOLE EARTH, AND EVERY TREE THAT HAS FRUIT IN IT." GENESIS 1:29-30 > [@](#): > > Lacking the invention of pipes, it was the practice of some ancient peoples to burn cannabis and other herbs in tents, so that more smoke could be captured and inhaled. In the last installment of this column we discussed such a group, the ancient Scythians. The Scythians were a nomadic people who travelled and settled extensively throughout Europe, the Mediterranean, Central Asia, and Russia. They burned cannabis inside small tents and inhaled the fumes for ritualistic and recreational purposes. > > Moses and his priests burned incense and used the holy ointment in a portable ‘tent of meeting’, the famous Tent of the Tabernacle. As cannabis is listed directly as an incense later in the Bible, it seems likely that Moses and the Levite priesthood would have burned cannabis flowers and pollen along with the ointment and incense which God commanded them to make. > [@](#): > > It is interesting to note that smoking was referred to as “eating” or “drinking” by the early American Indians. Peter J. Furst in Hallucinogen and Culture states the following: “Considering its enormous geographic spread in the Americas at the time of European discovery, as well as the probable age of stone tobacco pipes in California, the inhaling (often called “drinking” or “eating”) of tobacco smoke by the Shaman, as a corollary to therapeutic fumigation and the feeding of the gods with smoke, must also be of considerable antiquity.” i just put that in to show you that you cant take a few thousand year old book and translate it according to what you think it means. it could have other meanings that we’d never know about. hell, maybe even the priests son snuck in and wrote his own verses. point is…we dont know for sure. Several misconceptions need be addressed which were raised by Jeremy Erhart’s letter about Rev. Pothead. First, according to references such as Smith’s Bible Dictionary, the Hebrew words “Kaneh” and “Bosem” meaning aromatic reed, are found in Exodus 30:23, and refer to the recipe for the Holy Anointing Oil of Israel. Kaneh Bosem is the Semitic root origin of the word “Kannabus” ( Greek ) and “Cannabis” ( Latin ). The rewriting of history to which refers was actually done in 300 BC when Cannabis was mistranslated from the Hebrew Kaneh Bosem to the Greek meaning calamus. This recipe was revealed to Moses at the same time as the Ten Commandments. In modern units of measure it calls for nearly 8 pounds of Cannabis, along with other spices, for its preparation. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/56 "2005-07-12T19:26:21Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > What you are getting is a metaphorical reference to the destruction of the flesh. Now, if I were burned to death, I would likely wail and gnash my teeth, as, I suspect, would most. \*\* But where in your quote is “forever” or “eternally” mentioned?\*\* > I don’t know where you’re getting this “eternal punishment” vibe, but you might want to read some books. I suggest you start with the Bible. Honestly. Do you really think I haven’t read the Bible? Why would you make such a sarcastic suggestion? Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into everlasting punishment…” Hmmm…I can see that. the furnace of fire is a metaphor, and everlasting punishment just means perpetual separation or death. Oops, wait a minute Mark 9:43-48 There seems to be a lot of talk about being cast into a fire that shall never be quenched. but hey benefit of the doubt, maybe the death will be relatively quick and just the fire won’t be quenched but the suffering will… Oh wait! “their worm does not die.” what the hell does that mean. Ignore it. It’s just crazy worm talk. but what about Lazarus the rich man in Luke “And being in torments in Hades…” Uh oh, maybe death down there ain’t so quick after all. “…for I am tormented in this flame.” No, no. It’s just a parable, a figure of speech, hyperbole by Christ. now Jesus in John 5:29 spoke of the “resurrection of condemnation”, that surely must mean a conscious state of punishment. No, you won’t accept that either. and that Crazy John’s lake of fire is just a peyote induced hallucination. So eternal hellfire is just a metaphor. Why stop there, all Christ’s words were metaphors for polite living. But why stop there even. Let’s just say Christianity is a metaphor and the Bible is allegory. ---
**Author:** ![George\_Kaplin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3e96dc/32.png) [@George\_Kaplin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/George_Kaplin)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/57 "2005-07-12T19:26:49Z")
Wow, this thread has really exploded! I seem to have underestimated the posting power of the teeming millions 🙂 **Metacom** > [@Metacom](#): > > [ul] > Several common ways to address this (there may be more): > > [li]A benevolent God can’t; everyone is saved (universalism). [/li][li]“Hell” is separation from God; it’s no worse for them then their present state.[/li][li]There is no hell; those who aren’t saved simply cease to exist.[/li][li]Even God must obey certain laws (he can still be omnipotent if he does so voluntarily); so he sends people to hell (or non-existence, etc.) even though he doesn’t like to. [/li][/ul] Of these four options, the third makes the most sense to me. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this what Reform Jews believe already? I can’t accept universalism, as hell is mentioned a great many times in both the old and new testaments and seems to be quite a significant aspect of Jesus’ teachings. For example, in the Sermon on the Mount, commonly regarded as Jesus’ most important sermon, he says: > [@Jesus](#): > > Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat. Now, to me, this is a pretty unambiguous statement. Destruction obviously means either the eternal obliteration of the non-corporeal spirit (a.k.a. option 3 on your list), or hell. Universalism would seem to have us accept either that Jesus was scaremongering when he made references to eternal punishment, or that there _is_ a hell but there’s nobody in it. I don’t think either option is plausible. Why would Jesus be anything less than completely forthright when discussing the afterlife? What’s the point of an empty Hell? The second option isn’t all that much more palatable to me, as it is still an eternal punishment. Granted, it’s not as harsh as fire and brimstone, but, in its own way, is equally deserving of the label ‘Hell’. It sounds, actually, very must like the Quaker’s conception of hell, which involves sitting in a small room at the center of a globe the size of the earth, while a worm wriggles around on the surface. Over time, the worm would wear down the globe to nothingness, at which point the process would start over. My Religious Studies teacher told me that when I was fourteen, and the sheer horror of it has stuck with me ever since. To me, it’s only superior to the traditional Christian conception of hell insofar as your posterior is free of pitchforks and you’re not so uncomfortably hot. It still seems very unjust. For some reason, option three resonates with me. It seems the most just way to deal with those God deems unworthy to enter heaven. I wouldn’t accuse God of acting unjustly if he did this. I must confess I don’t understand your fourth point. If God _has_ to send people to hell, or non-existence, he can’t be all powerful because there must be some entity with even more power forcing God to act at his behest. Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/58 "2005-07-12T19:38:06Z")
there’s no point in debating here on a topic like this. i’m in it for the long haul but at this point i ask “what IS the point”? im not berating im just curious. we cant change an ideal…no matter what’s said here most of the people will still wait for some super hero to fall from the sky and we’ll still have people who would rather relax and talk to themselves in prayer instead of assuming responsibility for the state the world is in and doing something about it themselves. i cant give an actual scrip. ref. but doesnt the bible tell us something about God wanting us to help ourselves? ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/59 "2005-07-12T19:42:03Z")
im just saying that it seems the christian religion works best keeping weak-minded people in subjugation. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/60 "2005-07-12T19:52:32Z")
> [@masterchief243](#): > > i cant give an actual scrip. ref. but doesnt the bible tell us something about God wanting us to help ourselves? For years I thought that was from biblical scripture. Turns out it was a sarcastic comment from Hercules in the fable “Hercules and the Waggoner.” A guy was stuck in the mud and called on Hercules to get him out. Hercules responded with the famous ironic phrase, “The gods help those that help themselves.” It’s really an atheistic notion. Do it yourself and then say “Praise God!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076.md?page=4)