# A medley of questions for Christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076 "2005-07-11T23:11:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/61 "2005-07-12T20:12:13Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > For years I thought that was from biblical scripture. > > Turns out it was a sarcastic comment from Hercules in the fable “Hercules and the Waggoner.” > > A guy was stuck in the mud and called on Hercules to get him out. Hercules responded with the famous ironic phrase, “The gods help those that help themselves.” > > It’s really an atheistic notion. Do it yourself and then say “Praise God!” dont try that. ive read the bible before and i was raised in a christian background…at school. it says it somewhere and if it doesnt then it certainly is preached about like it is. somehow i think you just made reference to the cartoon to not answer the question. im just guessing. ive debated on many forums before and this seems the same modus operandi. if im wrong im sorry to have offended you. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/62 "2005-07-12T20:12:16Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Honestly. Do you really think I haven’t read the Bible? Why would you make such a sarcastic suggestion? While I don’t think it’d be appropriate for me to say that I don’t believe you have read the Bible, I will say that attempting to make your point by decontextualizing individual verses and offering semantic refutation thereof was a bit of sophism that didn’t even fly in my high school. > [@Ex Machina](#): > > No, you won’t accept that either. Don’t tell me what I’ll accept and what I won’t. Bring a reasoned position. Bring pros and cons. Then there’s room for debate. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/63 "2005-07-12T20:54:32Z")
> [@George Kaplin](#): > > **How can a supposedly benevolent and just God sentence anyone to infinite punishment (Hell) for finite sins? Does even the most unrepentant murderer really deserve a thousand million trillion years of pain and suffering for one murder? How about another thousand million trillion years, and yet another, and another ad infinitum? How about a petty thief? Or a just unbeliever?** > > For this question I am assuming, as the Bible clearly states, that one must be both virtuous, _and_ a believer, in order to enter Heaven. Neither unrepentant sinners _nor_ virtuous non-believers, can enter the Kingdom of Heaven. As I understand it, there is no Biblical basis for a belief in purgatory. While there is only one God, there are many definitions of God. Each person is likely to believe something different leaving confusion and contridictions about this subject. While I and others can tell you God doesn’t punish His children it will be hard for you to assimulate the answers into a new belief system. When I was confronted with these contradictions I chose to research them. Find out all you can about the Bible and religion in general, and in the mean time hold the faith that God loves you very much and will not harm you ever. ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/64 "2005-07-12T20:57:51Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > While I don’t think it’d be appropriate for me to say that I don’t believe you have read the Bible, I will say that attempting to make your point by decontextualizing individual verses and offering semantic refutation thereof was a bit of sophism that didn’t even fly in my high school. > > Don’t tell me what I’ll accept and what I won’t. > Bring a reasoned position. Bring pros and cons. Then there’s room for debate. hey scrappy. man dont bother. like i said before…ive posted MANY a time in other forums pertaining to religion and they always have the usual handful of people that avoid the references they bring up at all costs. Watch as this thread either dies or they bring a pile more references to refute your claim after youve refuted THEIR claim. its a never ending cycle. you could get through the entire bible and they’ll just post again from the top because youve forgotten youve already argued it. See the thing is, they view everyone that differs in opinion akin to being ignorant and dont know anything about the bible. watch the silence creep forth once you stay determined to keep on-topic. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/65 "2005-07-12T21:01:20Z")
> [@](#): > > any other black people here? the catholic church sure didnt mind saying we were less than property and didnt mind backing the supreme court saying blacks werent even human. Your comment of the Vatican property holdings was so silly I just mocked it. (It is not true, in case you missed that.) However, this is a really interesting claim and I would really like to see a citation in which the Catholic Church provided an _amicus_ brief (or in any other way supported) the U.S. Supreme Court on the topic of the humanity of black people. ---
**Author:** ![masterchief243](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@masterchief243](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/masterchief243)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/66 "2005-07-12T21:31:28Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Your comment of the Vatican property holdings was so silly I just mocked it. (It is not true, in case you missed that.) > > However, this is a really interesting claim and I would really like to see a citation in which the Catholic Church provided an _amicus_ brief (or in any other way supported) the U.S. Supreme Court on the topic of the humanity of black people. if you arent willing to use your google button then stop telling me im wrong. catholocism on every front belongs to the vatican. the same way essentially all intelligence and military protocols belong to the President (the american people). Every catholic church is expected to pay tribute…and in setting up a catholic church you essentially need permission. you pay all the costs but to call it a catholic church requires a fee. the vatican wont officially recognise you unless your registered and once registered they can come at any time and tell you under orders of the pope to change things around to their liking. just because its not on the news doesnt mean it doesnt exist. and no not every deed has to have “vatican” as property owner. my private school did that. they paid their “tithes” to the church on which it was funded and in turn the church paid tithes to the vatican…its a cycle. the money eventually gets to the vatican in the end. as for the humanity of black people it’d be so cool if you actually opened a history book or watched some programming during black history month. all during the times of slavery blacks were regarded as sub-human by the ministers and preachers…werent allowed to even pray in the same church for a little while. then it got to be that when blacks started earning small amounts of money the church called them in to repent and be saved. i thought you was all biblical? but i guess rev. pattersnacker didnt mention it when he called for everyone to give to the Mercedes fund…oops i mean the Lord’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/67 "2005-07-12T22:44:34Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m sorry, **Mangetout** , but the analogy in question is different from the hypothetical “real” situation in so many ways that it’s just not a very good analogy. Yes, all analogies are different _in some way_ from the situation they try to describe, but this one is very significantly different in too many ways to be useful. Perhaps you’re right; it was a spur-of-the-moment thing, but in any case, as I said, analogies are pretty worthless in a debate unless the person you’re talking to just doesn’t understand the shape of your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/68 "2005-07-12T22:52:11Z")
I’m trying to remember where I’ve seen this scenario played out before; the atheist who insists that Christians must be strict fundamentalists or nothing; who was it played that tune last time? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/69 "2005-07-12T22:58:25Z")
> [@](#): > > if you arent willing to use your google button then stop telling me im wrong. Sorry. That is not how a debate in this Forum proceeds. If you make an assertion, then it is up to you to provide the citations that establish the facts of that assertion. I’m sure I could throw things into Google™ and come back with lots of strange claims made by odd people. That does not establish a fact. I know very well how theCatholic Church is organized. You, however, made a claim that 30% of all property is owned by the Vatican. I will assert that 30% of all property is not even owned by Catholics, so your claim is false. Where are your facts? (By the way, the political or religious fealty owed by Catholics does not translate to ownership in the way that you have attempted to decribe it. Each diocese in the U.S. is a legal entity that has “ownership” under U.S. laws, organized and incorporated under U.S. laws. That Vatican has no “ownership” under those laws.) Leaving that aside, where is your reference regarding the Catholic church, the U.S. Supreme Court, and the humanity of blacks? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/70 "2005-07-12T23:00:33Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’m trying to remember where I’ve seen this scenario played out before; the atheist who insists that Christians must be strict fundamentalists or nothing; who was it played that tune last time? **BadChad** was our most recent unreasonable proponent. Before him, **Sweet Willie** made a pass at it, but he was more interested in baiting Jews than Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/71 "2005-07-12T23:52:34Z")
> [@masterchief243](#): > > no…not the gist of it…translate and tell me exactly what it is saying. give me the same scripture and break it down. Transliteration and translation are not the same. Paraphrase is a quite necessary component of translation — especially with metaphorical languages like Greek. Take Aristotle’s famous “to ti ên einai”. Transliterated, it is “the what it was to be”. Now, do you know what he’s talking about? Befuddled Roman philosophers, translating the text, invented a whole new word for it out of whole cloth: “essentia”. We know it as “essence”. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/72 "2005-07-13T03:32:04Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Yeah. I guess you’re right. The explicit words of Christ Himself should not be used as an authority regarding what Christ meant. > > All Christians should be able to write their own versions of the Gospel according to their comfort levels. > > Hey, maybe you, Mr. Genius, can explain where the authority of Christianity lies if the Gospels are rendered completely subjective? It doesn’t take a genius. Merely a rational examination of the facts. Let’s forget for a moment the detail that these words may never have been uttered by Jesus at all, or the issue of translation. In this chapter Jesus is speaking in parables. Let’s talk interpertation. What does it mean to Jerry Fawell, Billy Grahm, or the Pope? What if they don’t agree? Is it literal? Is it allegory? People who have studied the bible much more than you or I don’t agree. So for you to declare what Christians "have to believe " to be Christians is…welll, I already called it what it is. I think the authority of Christianity can be understood by looking at other words attributed to Jesus. Matthew 16:17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. John 16:13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. From the very begining of the Christian movement there was little agreement on exactly what Jesus was teaching and what it all meant. That has remained true down through the ages. Christians don’t agree on whether the Bible is the literal word of God and they certainly don’t agree on what certain passages mean. So regrdless of what any one wishes it might be, the Bible, is in fact subjective. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/73 "2005-07-13T03:38:00Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Maybe the rejection of one tenet of Christ opens the door for the rest. > Maybe if you can find one saying so unpalatable or even impossible it allows for a liberal interpretation for every other tenet you dislike. > “Don’t swear oaths. It is of Satan.” Ah, Jesus grow up. How can that hurt. > “Don’t resist an evil person.” Get outta here, I’ll kick his ass! > “Love your enemy.” Jesus, dude, you’re way too naive. See above. > “Lend hoping for nothing in return.” Ever hear of “the banking system” (Man this Jesus is way stupid.) > “Deny yourself, forsake the things of this world, sell what you have and give to the poor, woe to the rich, blessed are the poor.” > Sorry Jesus, your just a little passe’. But your still our Lord though. Lookin’ forward to that salvation thing you owe us. Now run along, you’re embarrassing us in front of our friends. > Oh, and by the way Jesus, don’t tell us how to run your business, we’ll tell you. In case you haven’t noticed. Thats exactly what is happening. ---
**Author:** ![BrianJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/54ee81/32.png) [@BrianJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrianJ)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/74 "2005-07-13T03:40:18Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Not to jump to **Ex Machina** ’s defense or anything, because his arguments are unnecessarily hostile, but that parable doesn’t follow. It would only be relevant if the wealthy man not only made the volcano erupt, but also was responsible for creating the island and putting it so close to the (known all along by the wealthy man) dangerous volcano. Hey, even if my parable sucked, I still wanna take CREDIT for it! 😛 \*\*Ex machina \*\* had nothing to do with that. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/75 "2005-07-13T03:42:13Z")
> [@masterchief243](#): > > but…the bible says it. what does it mean? I don’t know. I’ve spent more time studying how to live the life I’m in. The point is that people don’t agree on what it means. If it’s important to you then you can do your own studying and reach your own conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/76 "2005-07-13T03:52:48Z")
There are things I cannot figure out. I am told that God’s judgment, which apparently still works today, is meant to draw people to repentence. So if He sends someone or many people disasters ,or earthquakes, etc. HOW do these bad things make them turn to God? It doesn’t make sense. Then again, I am only a puny human. Also, if hell IS only ceasing to exist, and your loved one ceases to exist, how can you be happy in Heaven? Any opinions helpful. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/77 "2005-07-13T04:17:11Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Transliteration and translation are not the same. Paraphrase is a quite necessary component of translation — especially with metaphorical languages like Greek. Take Aristotle’s famous “to ti ên einai”. Transliterated, it is “the what it was to be”. Now, do you know what he’s talking about? Befuddled Roman philosophers, translating the text, invented a whole new word for it out of whole cloth: “essentia”. We know it as “essence”. I hate to be a pedant, but “transliteration” simply means changing the letters from one alphabet to another with translating the words. _En arche en o logos_ is a transliteration of Greek letters into English . The translation would be “In the beginning was the word.” Your larger point about literal translations is essentially valid and some degree of paraphrasing is almost always necessary because there are usually aspects of grammar and syntax which don’t make sense in strict, word for word renderings (sometimes called “slave translations” by translators). This is definitely true of Greek in which syntax is determined by morphology rather than word order, where virtually every noun and adjective requires a definite article (you can’t say “the red ball,” you have to say “the red the ball”), in which untranslatable particles abound, etc. A slave translation of the New Testament would read like gibberish. You’re right on that account. ---
**Author:** ![Ex\_Machina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/278dde/32.png) [@Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/78 "2005-07-13T04:19:24Z")
> [@masterchief243](#): > > dont try that. ive read the bible before and i was raised in a christian background…at school. > > it says it somewhere and if it doesnt then it certainly is preached about like it is. somehow i think you just made reference to the cartoon to not answer the question. im just guessing. ive debated on many forums before and this seems the same modus operandi. if im wrong im sorry to have offended you. This was from Aesop. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/79 "2005-07-13T04:31:17Z")
> [@Ex Machina](#): > > Jesus speaking: > > “The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth… So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” > > (Matt 13:41-42, 49-50) > > Come on. Let’s stop this nonsense. This is what the Gospel says. This is what you must believe if you claim to be a Christian. > > Either accept it or give up the whole Christianity thing. I’m an agnostic and I’m certainly not an apologist, but this verse does not refer to the popular Christian conception of eternal Hell (which is not in the Bible), but refers to an ancient Jewish eschatological belief that the unrighteous would be destroyed in Gehenna at the time of judgement. The punishment was _annihilation_, not eternal burning. All of the “hell” sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels (except for one parable which mentions Hades) actually say _Gehenna_ in the Greek. The word is often mistranslated as “Hell” but Gehenna was not Christian hell. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076/80 "2005-07-13T08:04:24Z")
I don’t understand why _some_ atheists get so hostile when many Christians do not hold fundamentalist beliefs. In my opinion, we have a least one atheist in this thread whose posts are as hostile and controlling as Christian fundamentalists are reputed to be and some Christians who take the more “hands off” approach I’ve often credited to atheists and especially agnostics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-medley-of-questions-for-christians/312076.md?page=5)