# A message to all atheists, unbelievers, and lukewarm christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164 "2013-08-25T23:56:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![jesusguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/94ad74/32.png) [@jesusguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesusguy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/181 "2013-08-28T16:06:07Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Why was Jesus “perfect sacrifice”? > > What is “sin”? who/what decides what a ‘sin’ is? > > Couldn’t God, since he created these ‘rules’, simply have changed the rules without requiring a human sacrifice? Sin is basically a perversion of God’s natural order. In a specific sense, stuff like adultery, and homosexuality are sins. These are all perversions of God’s natural order. He didn’t create men and women to be promiscuous, He created them to have a relationship and sex(Gen 1:28 “Be fruitful and multiply”) within the order/confines of marriage which is between one man and one woman. Jeremiah 32:27 says there’s NOTHING too hard for God so based on that He could easily change the rules. Why didn’t He change the rules? That’s a different story all together but Isaiah 55:8 says “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. God is a righteous judge and everything He does is perfect so I don’t even question Him about not “changing the rules” because I’m sure there’s a method to His “madness”. > [@hotflungwok](#): > > Wait, so only the prayers of the righteous can be heard. The righteous are those who have accepted jesus as their savior. So anyone who has accepted jesus as their savior has powerful prayers? What’s the difference between powerful prayers and the regular kind? Cuz it looks an awful lot like prayers get answered in the same way across the board: whenever god feels like it. > > What about god’s plan? That oddly undefinable thing that gets invoked whenever someone doesn’t want to have to explain why their prayer wasn’t answered. What if the prayers go against it? What about the powerful ones? You’re taking the “powerful” part of the verse too literally. What it’s basically saying is that because many of have accepted jesus as their savior, they’re made righteous and that God basically hears their prayers. The things to consider about prayer and whether or not God answers it are what are our motives for asking and are we using wisdom in asking. If I’m broke, unemployed and bad with money, I’m not gonna pray to God to help me win the lotto and become a millionaire because that’s a unwise prayer. The smart thing to do would be to pray and ask God for the wisdom to manage your money correctly and to also ask God to help you find employment(while you also put in job applications). Other things to consider is that maybe what we pray for isn’t the right thing for us, or that now isn’t the right time, or that God has something better in mind. ---
**Author:** ![jesusguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/94ad74/32.png) [@jesusguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesusguy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/182 "2013-08-28T16:10:05Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Cite. Hebrews 10:14-24 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/183 "2013-08-28T16:16:56Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Hebrews 10:14-24 Considering the very real problem of circular reasoning, do you have anything that _isn’t_ a Bible verse? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/184 "2013-08-28T16:37:08Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Sin is basically a perversion of God’s natural order. In a specific sense, stuff like adultery, and homosexuality are sins. These are all perversions of God’s natural order. He didn’t create men and women to be promiscuous, He created them to have a relationship and sex(Gen 1:28 “Be fruitful and multiply”) within the order/confines of marriage which is between one man and one woman. > > Jeremiah 32:27 says there’s NOTHING too hard for God so based on that He could easily change the rules. Why didn’t He change the rules? That’s a different story all together but Isaiah 55:8 says “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. God is a righteous judge and everything He does is perfect so I don’t even question Him about not “changing the rules” because I’m sure there’s a method to His “madness”. animals would seem to be the ‘perfect’ example of ‘God’s Natural Order’ - yet they fuck like bunnyrabits and are not given to ‘marriage’ - God did not ‘create’ marraige, social customs did - seems if he wants ‘muliplication’ - the more partners and more fucking, the better. If evertthing God does is ‘perfect’, how do you explain the royal fuckup in the beginning? why would there even be the need for the Flood? If you quote “free will” - realize that God created that too. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/185 "2013-08-28T16:39:24Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Other things to consider is that maybe what we pray for isn’t the right thing for us, or that now isn’t the right time, or that God has something better in mind. So - all the unanswered prayers to prevent mass casualties due to storms - or ppreventing cancer in infants is god “having something better in mind” ??? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/186 "2013-08-28T16:41:26Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Considering the very real problem of circular reasoning, do you have anything that _isn’t_ a Bible verse? Real Jesus didn’t use the bible. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/187 "2013-08-28T16:41:26Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So - all the unanswered prayers to prevent mass casualties due to storms - or ppreventing cancer in infants is god “having something better in mind” ??? And how is God supposed to cure us if he doesn’t give us horrible diseases _first_, smart guy?? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/188 "2013-08-28T16:42:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And how is God supposed to cure us if he doesn’t give us horrible diseases _first_, smart guy?? I see, so the lesson is that “this life sucks, better pray hard so the next life is better, IF I listen to you at all” which makes one really have to wonder - if God is so royaly screwing with us now - why in the hell (heh) would we want to trust whats ‘next’ ? Or is God really Loki? ---
**Author:** ![Askthepizzaguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askthepizzaguy/32/9405_2.png) [@Askthepizzaguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askthepizzaguy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/189 "2013-08-28T17:02:48Z")
> **[God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs](https://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm)** Jesusguy, do me a favor and read this page. > [@](#): > > This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus – according to [this recent article](http://www.rasmussenreports.com/2006/State%20Polls/August%202006/bibleLiterallyTrue.htm), “54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true.” In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%. > > If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says: > > [ul] > [li]\*\*Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! \*\*[/li][/ul] > If “_every one who asks receives_”, then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If “_our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him_”, then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens. In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says: > > [ul] > [li]\*\*For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. \*\*[/li][/ul] > If “_nothing will be impossible to you_”, then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement “_nothing will be impossible to you_” becomes “_lots of things will be impossible to you_,” and that would mean that Jesus is lying. In Matthew 21:21: > > [ul] > [li]\*\*I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. \*\*[/li][/ul] > If “_you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer_”, then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret “_you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer_”, unless you replace “whatever” with “nothing” or “little.” The message is reiterated Mark 11:24: > > [ul] > [li]\*\*Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. \*\*[/li][/ul] > If God says, “_believe that you have received it, and it will be yours_,” and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying. You see, Jesus said things which are **demonstrably false** , and he said them in a way that couldn’t possibly mean he was speaking figuratively. These were not allegories. He was literally saying that if you believe, you’ll have superpowers granted to you by God himself. Your Bible is full of lies, and your son of God was a liar. That’s no reason to nail him to some wood, but let’s call a spade a spade. Jesus made promises he could not, and did not deliver, and people still believe his lies, just as you do. I’m more trustworthy than Jesus. If you order pizza from my store, there’s a chance I’ll deliver it. If you order a prayer from Jesus, nothing happens. Do yourself a favor. You like reading about Jesus, right? Keep reading all 50 proofs of why Jesus is imaginary. Then, look at the Bible, realize you’ve been lied to, and move on with your life. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/190 "2013-08-28T17:21:54Z")
What, in fact, did jesus even sacrifice? Do a few hours of discomfort even register in the lifetime of an immortal? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/191 "2013-08-28T17:26:50Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Sin is basically a perversion of God’s natural order. In a specific sense, stuff like adultery, and homosexuality are sins. These are all perversions of God’s natural order. He didn’t create men and women to be promiscuous, He created them to have a relationship and sex(Gen 1:28 “Be fruitful and multiply”) within the order/confines of marriage which is between one man and one woman. Apparently, god’s natural order also includes not shaving, not wearing clothing with mixed fibers, and stoning your children for being disobedient. > [@](#): > > Jeremiah 32:27 says there’s NOTHING too hard for God so based on that He could easily change the rules. Why didn’t He change the rules? That’s a different story all together but Isaiah 55:8 says “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the LORD. God is a righteous judge and everything He does is perfect so I don’t even question Him about not “changing the rules” because I’m sure there’s a method to His “madness”. So, you don’t know, and you don’t care. > [@](#): > > You’re taking the “powerful” part of the verse too literally. What it’s basically saying is that because many of have accepted jesus as their savior, they’re made righteous and that God basically hears their prayers. If they’re righteous, and you assume they’re praying for righteous things like peace and healing and no hunger, then why aren’t these prayers being answered? > [@](#): > > The things to consider about prayer and whether or not God answers it are what are our motives for asking and are we using wisdom in asking. If I’m broke, unemployed and bad with money, I’m not gonna pray to God to help me win the lotto and become a millionaire because that’s a unwise prayer. The smart thing to do would be to pray and ask God for the wisdom to manage your money correctly and to also ask God to help you find employment(while you also put in job applications). If you’re putting in job applications, why bother praying to god? Say you pray to god and put in job applications, then you get a job. Go ahead and go up the line of people who had a hand in your hiring decision, and ask them all whether they chose this, or if god showed up and put in a good word. Wanna hear my bet? > [@](#): > > Other things to consider is that maybe what we pray for isn’t the right thing for us, or that now isn’t the right time, or that God has something better in mind. Why would you consider this? What reason would god have to allow children to be sexually abused every day of their life? What reason would god have to allow a hurricane to demolish an island and leave the inhabitants to die? No one ever seems to be able to answer this, it’s just more ‘I dont know, and I dont care’. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/192 "2013-08-28T18:05:48Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Sin is basically a perversion of God’s natural order. In a specific sense, stuff like adultery, and homosexuality are sins. These are all perversions of God’s natural order. Are slavery and polygamy a part of god’s natural order? Because the bible seems OK with either one: [Leviticus 25:44](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25:44&version=NIV) > [@](#): > > ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. [1 Samuel 27:3](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel+27:3&version=NIV) > [@](#): > > David and his men settled in Gath with Achish. Each man had his family with him, and David had his two wives: Ahinoam of Jezreel and Abigail of Carmel, the widow of Nabal. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/193 "2013-08-28T18:34:44Z")
> [@Askthepizzaguy](#): > > [God is Imaginary - 50 simple proofs](http://godisimaginary.com/i1.htm) > > Jesusguy, do me a favor and read this page. > > You see, Jesus said things which are **demonstrably false** , and he said them in a way that couldn’t possibly mean he was speaking figuratively. These were not allegories. He was literally saying that if you believe, you’ll have superpowers granted to you by God himself. > > Your Bible is full of lies, and your son of God was a liar. That’s no reason to nail him to some wood, but let’s call a spade a spade. Jesus made promises he could not, and did not deliver, and people still believe his lies, just as you do. > > I’m more trustworthy than Jesus. If you order pizza from my store, there’s a chance I’ll deliver it. If you order a prayer from Jesus, nothing happens. > > Do yourself a favor. You like reading about Jesus, right? Keep reading all 50 proofs of why Jesus is imaginary. > > Then, look at the Bible, realize you’ve been lied to, and move on with your life. The catch is that your prayer wasn’t granted because you lack enough faith to make it work. ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/194 "2013-08-28T19:08:45Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Jesus was the perfect sacrifice for the atonement of our sins. Jesus had to die to restore our relationship with God because sin(we’re all sinners) seperates us from God. James 5:16 says the prayers of the righteous are powerful. Keyword is “righteous”. Sin is unrighteousness which prevents our prayers or repentance from being heard. Accepting Jesus as our savior makes us righteous in God’s eyes. Interesting. Some dude had to die almost 2000 years\*\* before I was born\*\* to atone for my sins. Not only that, but an omnipotent omniscient god needed a sacrifice to atone for my sins rather than just declaring from on high “YOUR SINS ARE FORGIVEN!”. Not only that, since Jesus is part of the “three in one” Trinity according to most Christian traditions this same god decided to practice some serious masochism before deciding that sins of people that did not currently exist at the time (e.g. me) were atoned for. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/195 "2013-08-28T19:16:12Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > The catch is that your prayer wasn’t granted because you lack enough faith to make it work. hmmmm [QUOTE=JESUS (the real one, supposedly) @ Mathew 17:20] He replied, “Because you have so little faith. **Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed,** you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.” [/QUOTE] You know how small a mustard seed is? its really fricking small - ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/196 "2013-08-28T19:46:14Z")
> [@simster](#): > > hmmmm > > You know how small a mustard seed is? its really fricking small - So if I pray and the mountain doesn’t move, it means my faith is smaller than a mustard seed? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/197 "2013-08-28T19:57:41Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So if I pray and the mountain doesn’t move, it means my faith is smaller than a mustard seed? IMHO - it means 1 of 2 things - a) the required amount of faith to get any prayer answered is not achievable by humans and is therefore nothing but a ‘carrot on a stick’ tease by Loki. b) Jesus Lied - he knew it was not achievable I guess the other option is that its a misquote by the author - but the bible is supposed to be ‘God’s Word’, right? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/198 "2013-08-28T20:08:47Z")
Maybe they had really, _really_, _ **really** _ big mustard seeds back then? ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/199 "2013-08-28T20:17:20Z")
If your faith was any significant fraction of the size of a mustard seed, or indeed any size at all, that would mean you’d have to be able to see it right? How could you compare it’s size to something else unless you could see it somehow? And what did the Jews put mustard on back then anyway? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/200 "2013-08-28T20:19:42Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > If your faith was any significant fraction of the size of a mustard seed, or indeed any size at all, that would mean you’d have to be able to see it right? How could you compare it’s size to something else unless you could see it somehow? > > And what did the Jews put mustard on back then anyway? I hear it goes good on fish and loaves as long as red wine (or water) is available. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164.md?page=11)