# A message to all atheists, unbelievers, and lukewarm christians **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164 "2013-08-25T23:56:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/221 "2013-08-29T16:33:03Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I happen to be an atheist, (polls have shown that atheists and agnostics tend to be better informed about religion generally than theists) and I would point out that Mary was NOT raped for two reasons. > > 1. There was no sexual penetration. The Bible does not exactly specify if the angel took out a turkey baster full of God-sperm and used it on Mary, but it is generally agreed that the insemination did not involve an actual act of sexual intercourse. > > 2. Mary consented. She said “Be it done unto me according to thy word.” That’s a shame because never before or since would the words, “Oh god… Oh God… OH God… OH GOD!!!”, have been more truly spoken. ---
**Author:** ![chargerrich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chargerrich/32/5399_2.png) [@chargerrich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chargerrich)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/222 "2013-08-29T18:58:15Z")
Goooooooooooooo ROME! /grabs a spear :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Find\_Friends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@Find\_Friends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Find_Friends)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/223 "2013-08-29T19:26:41Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > You know, I just don’t see the appeal of Heaven. The sort of people who supposedly go there are people that I want to avoid, I have a low tolerance for harp music, I don’t think I could stomach singing praises to a god all day, every day, and I think that I’d be bored out of my skull. I’d need a lobotomy to enjoy Heaven. > > And while I’ve heard that all dogs go to heaven, what about cats? I’m not going ANYWHERE unless it offers cats, chocolate, tea, books, and video games. Wow, that takes me back. Some time in the early 70’s Ms. Magazine published a personal essay called “Aprodite at Mid-century” by a woman who grew up Catholic in Silver Springs in the '50’s. Two things stand out in my memory. One was about her growing concept of Mary. A classmate once wrote in a the parish school newspaper that Mary was potentially the most intelligent person on the planet but sublimated her desire for advanced education and other intellectual development to serve divine will as the chosen vessel. “Oh, no! Mary coudn’t be a ‘brain’?!” (A paraphrase from memory.) The other early indication of a growing doubt about the standard beliefs was her thought about Heaven versus Limbo. Specifically “Limbo of the Unbaptised” rather than “Limbo of the Just” since the latter was to have been emptied out when the savior came. In theory, Heaven was supposed to be very much superior to Limbo, since the latter only offered endless natural pleasures and joys. Only in heaven could people experience the ultimate, the Divine Vision, and it was supposed to be superior in bliss to anything the most blessed had experienced on earth. I also remember in my college years an atheist with a Jewish background who complained that unbaptised babies were screwed for eternity through no fault of their own. He may or may not have understood the part about endless natural joy. At any rate, the author took a very different view and argued that she would have greatly preferred rolling down grassy hills and dining on cheeseburgers and milkshakes. She couldn’t imagine being happy with sitting on chair and staring at the Throne. Lynn, I would wish you to go to this Limbo if I believed it existed. Anyone who mentions cats before all other preferences can’t be all bad. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/224 "2013-08-29T19:53:00Z")
I really appreciate the thought, but I must confess that I also enjoy some unnatural pleasures and joys. I’m pretty sure that cats are natural, but video games? ---
**Author:** ![jesusguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/94ad74/32.png) [@jesusguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesusguy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/225 "2013-08-29T20:41:52Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Cite means evidence. Anonymous mumbo-jumbo is not ‘evidence’. This is the Great Debates section not the IMHO one so let’s see the proof. > > start with proving there is a god. > > Then prove he’s the Christian one. > > Then we’ll take it from there. There’s no concrete proof of the existence of God. Also, God said those who believe in His son Jesus and also accept Him as their savior will have eternal life. He didn’t say those who find evidence that His son existed will have eternal life. There’s no concrete evidence of Jesus’ existence because proving His existence doesn’t get us to heaven, faith and repentance do. > [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > **Jesusguy** , serious question. Do you think anyone here has not already heard about what you’re preaching? And with that in mind, do you think just repeating it is going to convince _anyone_? I’m pretty sure some know but not everyone knows the full message. Not everyone knows/or is taking it seriously(this topic is proof of this) that Jesus will be back very very soon and that only those who accept Him as their savior and repent for their sins will be raptured. Everyone else will be left behind and will be in for worst time unparalleled to any time in history. > [@BigAppleBucky](#): > > To the OP. You are completely welcome to believe whatever you want. > > Just don’t try to force me to go along. I’m not forcing, I’m informing. Also, the moment we die, we stand before God and from there we go to heaven or to hell. No one can say they didn’t know when God questions them because they’ve been informed. > [@Princhester](#): > > You are really just repeating yourself. Why did he have to die to restore our relationship with God? I don’t understand why this would be necessary. Pretty sure I explained it earlier but Jesus was perfect and without sin. He was a perfect sacrifice for the atonement of our sins. He had to die as part of God’s plan for the redemption/restoration of humanity’s relationship with Him. And like I’ve said before, everyone who accepts Jesus as their savior and repents for their sins are righteous in God’s eyes and have a restored relationship with him. Everyone who hasn’t needs to because if we die as unrepentant sinners and without accepting jesus as our savior, we’re going to hell. > [@monavis](#): > > Why would an all Knowing , all loving Being need people to ask for what he knows they need, or hold back anything that he knows is good for the person or give what is harmful? > > He seems far less than a human parent that doesn’t make their child beg for necessities, or give them things that are harmful. I know I wouldn’t and I am far from all knowing! I don’t know and I don’t have all the answers but what I do say is that if we need something I don’t see why it’s a problem to ask God for it before He gives it to us. I refer you to Matt 7:7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/226 "2013-08-29T20:52:35Z")
Small problem, **jesusguy** -What is the use of quoting scripture at those that not only don’t believe it to be the Word of God, but don’t even believe in your god at all? What if I told you that Santa Claus existed, and my proof is a copy of the diary he wrote in? If you don’t even believe in Santa Claus, how much consideration will you give the his supposed diary? ---
**Author:** ![jesusguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/94ad74/32.png) [@jesusguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jesusguy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/227 "2013-08-29T21:29:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Small problem, **jesusguy** -What is the use of quoting scripture at those that not only don’t believe it to be the Word of God, but don’t even believe in your god at all? What if I told you that Santa Claus existed, and my proof is a copy of the diary he wrote in? If you don’t even believe in Santa Claus, how much consideration will you give the his supposed diary? You make a very good point. All I can say to you or anyone else is that if you really want to be convinced, step out in faith and pray to God about it. Ask Him to show you what the right path really is and He will. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/228 "2013-08-29T21:31:15Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > There’s no concrete proof of the existence of God. Also, God said those who believe in His son Jesus and also accept Him as their savior will have eternal life. He didn’t say those who find evidence that His son existed will have eternal life. There’s no concrete evidence of Jesus’ existence because proving His existence doesn’t get us to heaven, faith and repentance do. You can bid on buying the Golden Gate Bridge so long as you believe I have the deed to the Golden Gate Bridge. All those who demand evidence that I now own the bridge are excluded from bidding. Bids start at $10 million. Your argument shows a certain touch of gullibility. “Pay no attention to the lack of evidence behind the curtain!” I’ll accept that Jesus existed, since I doubt that they were that good at making up characters back then. But he was just another delusional Messiah wannabe who didn’t last five minutes up against the Romans, got snuffed, and had followers who later said “he meant to do that.” Mohammed actually won his battles. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/229 "2013-08-29T21:32:55Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > You make a very good point. All I can say to you or anyone else is that if you really want to be convinced, step out in faith and pray to God about it. Ask Him to show you what the right path really is and He will. Why do you think God refuses to show evidence? Remember, Jesus supposedly did tricks when he was here. _stop your snickering_ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/230 "2013-08-29T21:34:45Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Pretty sure I explained it earlier but Jesus was perfect and without sin. He was a perfect sacrifice for the atonement of our sins. He had to die as part of God’s plan for the redemption/restoration of humanity’s relationship with Him. And like I’ve said before, everyone who accepts Jesus as their savior and repents for their sins are righteous in God’s eyes and have a restored relationship with him. Everyone who hasn’t needs to because if we die as unrepentant sinners and without accepting jesus as our savior, we’re going to hell. I suppose nothing about this sounds patently absurd to you? Not one little bit? I suppose you can’t imagine yourself being born in Tibet in a remote village, living a good and peaceful life as a shepherd, hurting no-one and still ending up in hell. Your only sin being that you’ve never met a fundamentalist Christian and thus have never been exposed to Jesus and your version of the truth. If Jesus/god is so wonderful, why do you think he intentionally keeps the one true religion from remote Tibetan villages so that they’ll all end up in hell? > [@jesusguy](#): > > I don’t know and I don’t have all the answers… You don’t even have some of the answers. Stop acting as if you do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/231 "2013-08-29T21:34:57Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > You make a very good point. All I can say to you or anyone else is that if you really want to be convinced, step out in faith and pray to God about it. Ask Him to show you what the right path really is and He will. If there is no harm in praying to your god, could you please tell us how many gods _you’ve_ prayed to? How many different gods have you asked for guidance? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/232 "2013-08-29T21:44:07Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > There’s no concrete proof of the existence of God. Because he’s imaginary, fiction. Not to mention impossible. > [@jesusguy](#): > > Also, God said those who believe in His son Jesus and also accept Him as their savior will have eternal life. He didn’t say those who find evidence that His son existed will have eternal life. There’s no concrete evidence of Jesus’ existence because proving His existence doesn’t get us to heaven, faith and repentance do. In other words, your god only wants people who deny their own senses and reason, and hate themselves. > [@jesusguy](#): > > I’m pretty sure some know but not everyone knows the full message. Not everyone knows/or is taking it seriously(this topic is proof of this) that Jesus will be back very very soon and that only those who accept Him as their savior and repent for their sins will be raptured. Everyone else will be left behind and will be in for worst time unparalleled to any time in history. Ah yes, the godthug who demands that everyone grovel or suffer. The “divine” being that acts like some megalomaniacal Third World dictator. And this whole “Rapture” idea is both quite recent and believed last I heard pretty much only by Americans. > [@jesusguy](#): > > Pretty sure I explained it earlier but Jesus was perfect and without sin. He was a perfect sacrifice for the atonement of our sins. He had to die as part of God’s plan for the redemption/restoration of humanity’s relationship with Him. Which as said is a ridiculous idea. Christianity is a deeply ridiculous belief system, but the whole “Jesus died for your sins” bit is one of the silliest parts of it. > [@jesusguy](#): > > And like I’ve said before, everyone who accepts Jesus as their savior and repents for their sins are righteous in God’s eyes and have a restored relationship with him. Everyone who hasn’t needs to because if we die as unrepentant sinners and without accepting jesus as our savior, we’re going to hell. Even if I believed in him, I don’t want a relationship with your demon-god. It would be like sucking up to Hitler, but worse. > [@jesusguy](#): > > You make a very good point. All I can say to you or anyone else is that if you really want to be convinced, step out in faith and pray to God about it. Ask Him to show you what the right path really is and He will. No he won’t, because he doesn’t exist and talks to no one. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/233 "2013-08-29T21:58:53Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Ask Him to show you what the right path really is and He will. You were turfed, **Czar**. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/234 "2013-08-29T22:03:15Z")
The whole God game is a scam. So God creates us without the ability to tell right from wrong. Then when we _gasp_ do something bad (like disobeying him) and eat the fruit that lets us know right from wrong he decides every single human from then on inherits this “sin” we couldn’t have known we shouldn’t commit. Then he decides that in order to forgive us he has to incarnate himself as a human (kind of…) and commits a very indirect form of suicide. But even that’s not enough, because we now have to worship the suicidal human sacrifice. Not to mention the hook of this whole “incarnate myself and kill myself” thing involves creating a human without original sin in the first place, proving that if he feels like it he can make humans not have it without the weird suicide shenanigans. Making the entire exercise completely pointless. “Elegance” is not God’s strong suit. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/235 "2013-08-29T22:38:26Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Pretty sure I explained it earlier but Jesus was perfect and without sin. He was a perfect sacrifice for the atonement of our sins. You failed to explain it adequately. What was this “sacrifice”? Jesus experienced a bit of physical pain, and maybe a _temporary_ stint in hell or something like that. Then he sat up in the tomb (that some angel-person popped open for him, I guess) and was taken up to sit at the right-hand of jehovallah. _So, what was this great sacrifice?_ Jesus lives on, into eternity, schmoozing with dad, being all glorious and everything. The suffering bit was kind of humiliating, but that did not last very long and is over now. Sure sounds like a big deal over a band-aid to me. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/236 "2013-08-29T22:48:37Z")
> [@For You](#): > > You failed to explain it adequately. What was this “sacrifice”? Jesus experienced a bit of physical pain, and maybe a _temporary_ stint in hell or something like that. Then he sat up in the tomb (that some angel-person popped open for him, I guess) and was taken up to sit at the right-hand of jehovallah. _So, what was this great sacrifice?_ Jesus lives on, into eternity, schmoozing with dad, being all glorious and everything. The suffering bit was kind of humiliating, but that did not last very long and is over now. Sure sounds like a big deal over a band-aid to me. Not to mention that because Jesus got hung up before the long holiday weekend, he wasn’t up there for very long - not nearly as long as was normal. This was the awful pain and suffering? He probably cried before getting a shot. “Waah that hurts.” “Haven’t done it yet.” You know the drill. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/237 "2013-08-29T22:53:58Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > Pretty sure I explained it earlier but Jesus was perfect and without sin. He was a perfect sacrifice for the atonement of our sins. He had to die as part of God’s plan for the redemption/restoration of humanity’s relationship with Him. Sorry but you really haven’t explained it at all. Why was he the perfect sacrifice? What is it about being without sin that made Jesus a perfect sacrifice? Why was it part of God’s plan? What was the reasoning and why was that good reasoning? If you were a child who knew nothing about cars and you asked me exactly why putting gas in a car made it go and my answer was “because it’s the perfect fuel” or “because that is the car manufacturer’s plan” would you think that a useful answer? Would you feel satisfied or would you feel like I’d blown you off? Would you, if you were a somewhat sceptical kid, perhaps think that, actually, I didn’t really know why putting gas in a car made it go? A better answer (and the type of answer I’m looking for from you) would be that putting gas in the car makes it go because the gas travels down fuel lines to the engine, where it’s burned in cylinders which creates pressure that drives pistons which turn a crankshaft which turns the driveshaft which drives the wheels around. And if you asked me for more detail on any aspect, I’d give it to you the best of my ability. That’s the standard of answer I’m looking for from you. So, could you try answering my questions to that standard? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/238 "2013-08-29T22:56:39Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > You were turfed, **Czar**. I asked Odin-got nothin’. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/239 "2013-08-29T23:03:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > … He probably cried before getting a shot. > “Waah that hurts.” > “Haven’t done it yet.” > > You know the drill. What an image, jesus gets a root canal … ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164/240 "2013-08-30T01:28:05Z")
> [@jesusguy](#): > > You make a very good point. All I can say to you or anyone else is that if you really want to be convinced, step out in faith and pray to God about it. Ask Him to show you what the right path really is and He will. I did that, several times. No answer. Some time later, I tried to contact Satan, as I wanted to make a deal. Seriously. No offers. Either my soul is worthless, or there’s nobody out there to take it. Or, I guess, I really AM a soulless, heartless monster who only lives to pet cats, eat chocolate, read books, and play video games. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-message-to-all-atheists-unbelievers-and-lukewarm-christians/667164.md?page=13)